Before I start on my arguments, I would like to give 2 basic pointers on parliamentary debating, which the proposition clearly seems to be in need of.
Firstly, the example on polygamy in Hindu mythology - giving an example as an argument (of precedent, or otherwise) is hardly the basis for one. To that effect, it was well rebutted by the DLO with a counter-example and nothing else, because that’s all it deserved.
Secondly, our very honourable and experienced proposition whip mentions that "whether the honourable DPM believes that dowry crimes shall increase as a result of polygamy , are hardly facts of evidence" - does he want us to try polygamy and dowry laws on a sample case, and provide statistics? (note here that polygamy-friendly Islam doesn't have dowry) The prop clearly has no idea of logic-based arguments, and would only go after studies, which they have so easily presented and even more easily misrepresented, but more on that later.
Now, while going about with their argumentation, the proposition has clearly forgotten about a major part of India, namely rural India, where the society isn't as progressive as they believe, the people aren't as educated as they think - and yes, many aren't rational thinkers as well. If they were, vote bank politics and buying votes would be a thing of the past - but that’s another debate altogether. Nonetheless, my point of rural India and how the rural Indian wife suffers more than anybody else shall keep coming in the following arguments.
The major points of clash, as the opposition sees it are the following three
1. Apparent economic benefits & population control
2. Inherent polygamy (which mysteriously becomes 'polygamous tendency' in prop whip)
3. Supposed reduction in various negatives of monogamy (dowry crimes, AIDS etc)
Firstly, on the point of ‘apparent economic benefits’. The PM gave utopian examples of rich men and women having multiple spouses and thereby improving the average lifestyle and reducing the number of 'bums and hobos' on the streets. The obvious flaw in this argument is the equation of marriage to money. People cannot just buy marriages and improve lifestyle. If that was the case, then rich men would "buy" wives from an entire village and have a harem ready all for themselves. This comparison is demeaning the concept of marriage.
On the point of population reduction, their example of x, y and z clearly has forgotten an obvious variable i.e. the number of kids each remaining (y-1) wives/husbands can have. Let the average value of this obvious parameter be 'o'. Now, let polygyny case P have a man with y wives and, thus, x children. Let monogamy case M have y men with y wives and, thus, z children (at an average of 'o' per couple). Economic capability would limit x to be less than z, since y+1 individuals provide for x kids in case P. However, what they forget in case P is the remaining (y-1) men who were considered as husbands in the monogamous case M. These (y-1) husbands will produce ‘o’ kids at an average. Thus, the only difference between case P and M is the case of the polygamous husband who produces ‘x’ kids in P instead of ‘o’ kids in M. Clearly, with more wives in P, x is greater and hence your population would actually increase with polygyny.
Of course, in case you claim that there are more women considered for the y men in polygamous case P, then you would also agree that in case P we would just not have enough marriageable women in the country to marry all the men. In such cases, some men would resort to prostitution for the sexual desires, with emotional desires being totally neglected. Or, in rural indian society, younger girls might be forced into marriage, which affects future generations.
Note that this example applies very well for polyandrous women too, but our emphasis is on polygyny here since that would seem more likely, considering our male dominated society and the skewed sex ratio in favour of men. Thus, the population example creates more problems for society via prostitution, or via increased population, depending on how you look at it. In fact, the way the proposition arguments are framed, the only thing that’s worth noticing in ‘apparent economic benefits’ is the word 'apparent'.
The next point of clash is based on the study that humans naturally prefer polygamy (or polygamous tendency as the prop whip very conveniently rephrased it). Firstly, is marriage a natural thing, or is it a man-made institution? Would Adam and Eve want to have married as a natural consequence? I'm sure that the proposition was pointing to the fact that humans would wish to have sex with multiple partners. That is what the proposition calls polygamy/polygamous tendency. In that case, besides completely misinterpreting the basic essence of polygamy, once again the proposition is demeaning the concept or essence of marriage by equating it to sex. Also, as my LO has clearly stated, there is no end to this need for sexual variety, and people might add to their spouses every few years in their marriage just for want of good, novel sex.
Once again, I bring to you the pitiable condition in rural India, where women aren't allowed to express their sexual desires - it is considered sinful for a woman to want to have sex, and natural for a man. To this effect, men will have a number of wives, which, in all probability, will not be taken in good spirit by the (helpless) women. These women can't do anything about it because a man would be expected to have a number of sexual partners - where will they get support from? Such a law of polygamy will be oppressive towards such women.
By the points of the prop whip it seems like marriage, to him, is more of a barter/business-like tradition, where people marry to either acquire money or a continuously supply of sexual pleasure, completely neglecting the emotional aspect to marriage. I pity the woman who will marry him.
Finally, I would like to talk to you about the so-called reduced negatives in polygamy. The DPM mentions how "Forced arranged marriages, dowry crimes, domestic violence and infidelity, among other issues brew a large amount of dissatisfaction amongst monogamous couples" and that "legalisation of polygamy provides people the option of finding satisfaction in another partner". First of all, if you do have problems with your monogamous or polygamous spouse, you should file for divorce!! You don’t run away from it by marrying an additional person. This also seems to suggest that when you marry another person, then you are not taking consent from your current spouse, all the more reason to wreak havoc to a household. And as is rightly pointed out by the DLO, polygamy, by virtue of having more than one spouse for a person, will have inherent competition among spouses, and this gives rise to greed in terms of more dowry where it is prevalent (such as rural India). Some spouse might have a high spending power and may spend more on his child who lives in the same house as another child with a poorer parent. Such disparity will create a whole lot more problems in the household, which may turn into court cases. And employment among lawyers at the expense of peace in one's house is not at all a laughing matter for the opposition.
About the decrease in the spreading of AIDS, that is clearly rebutted by the LO who stated that it is not mandatory even in monogamy - how will it prevent the spread of AIDS in polygamy? It seemed so convincing that neither the DPM nor the prop whip picked it up after.
Thus, I have clearly shown to the house how there aren’t any apparent benefits or reduced negatives in polygamy – infact only worse off situations and conditions. I have proved how these conditions will be detrimental most of all to women in rural India, which forms a very large chunk of the population. I have also shown how arguments such as the containment of AIDS or sexual variety are totally misconstrued and pointless from the side of the proposition. With that I am proud to oppose this highly fallacious motion.
Tuesday, October 20, 2009
Sunday, October 18, 2009
Prop Whip
Ladies and gentlemen, as the proposition whip, my job is to provide to you a cost-benefit analysis and show you how the proposition has clearly managed to win all the major points of clash. Firstly, let us take a look at the 3 major points of clash-
1) Fundamental right to choice vs. rationality of the individual to make a good and sensible choice.
2) Polygamy being a viable legal and social alternative vs. the potential hazards in the form of economic, social or other perceived costs.
3) Polygamous tendency being inherent to an individual vs. the loss of sanctity of the institution of marriage.
Before I begin the cost benefit analysis, let me complement the DPM on his perspectives and insights into the case. However his beliefs hardly matter to the substance of the case, and are incidental if at all of any value. Speculation about Shri Lalu Yadav’s progeny or whether the honourable DPM believes that dowry crimes shall increase as a result of polygamy, are hardly facts of evidence- hence they do not count as constructives or rebuttals at all. At best, they are opinions, and NOT PROOF.
And now for the cost benefit analysis-
1) The opposition seems to believe that the government wants to convert every monogamous individual to polygamous. Clearly the proposition has stated that we only want to make polygamy a legally available alternative. Hence, there ought to be no contention on this premise. Next, the opposition seems to be clearly hesitant in considering citizens of India rational enough in making choices. This is clearly an unreasonable generalization. However uneducated or poor a person may be, it is by and large reasonable to assume that the individual is mindful of his/her best interests and will,in any circumstance(be it compelled or free will), make a choice that he/she finds most suitable at such a time. Let me remind the opposition that monogamy also rests on the premise that individuals are rational enough to enter into matrimonial alliances. Why then such frivolous assumptions in the case of polygamy. Clearly, this exposes double standards.
A very interesting fact is that the DPM actually said “ We need to 1st make our people understand how rising population… large families are detrimental to society in general and to them in particular…” . He inherently concedes to the fact that if people understand family planning, then polygamy may not be such a bad thing after all ! This is presumably his 2nd step …
The proposition also fails to see how “It will lead to excess men who cannot find wives and hence younger girls will be used.”(quoting the DPM). Is the opposition’s case based on polygyny alone? If so, they already concede to half our case without me breaking sweat. If not, then this line of defence is invalid, since there is an equal probability of polyandry which will tend to cancel out the effects as perceived.
The proposition has clearly shown you how a rational individual will have the liberty to make a choice, as against a legal ban. The opposition has come up with skewed argumentation along the lines of people not being rational enough to make the choice. The proposition merely wants to provide a legal alternative, while the opposition is afraid that “lawyers will have a field day”. Ladies and gentlemen, we need to generate employment in our country!(please take this as a rather dry piece of humour) The proposition seems to be afraid of passing the law only since “the changes would be endless.” Is the fear of change their only reason to deny citizens their rights? If so, they are going against the very fundamental purpose of laws- which are meant to enforce rights.
2) The opposition has been magnanimous enough to point out flaws in the system of polygamy. Breakdown of family machinery in the form of jealousy and lack of time, economic troubles for poorer sections, overpopulation as a potential hazard of polygamy, and social inequality creation between the genders and also between various strata of society were all the arguments put forth by the opposition.
As the proposition, we have argued that legalizing polygamy doesn’t mean replacing monogamy with polygamy- it simply means giving people a choice to decide which system of marriage they would want to follow. We told you that family machinery wouldn’t break down, because people who became part of such a family opted to be part of this setup. The opposition merely countered by saying that somehow jealousy would not allow for harmonious existence. If so, there is always the legal route out of such a marriage! If two individuals cannot harmoniously co-exist, they may choose to separate legally(or ‘divorce’) . However, presuming that divorce is an imminent consequence and thereby disallowing the legalization of polygamy is akin to saying that people must never get married simply because they would probably not last as a couple- a rather presumptuous and hollow argument by the opposition, which defeats their cause of monogamy too.
We told you that polygamy is viable legally and socially. Islam follows the system of polygyny, wherein a man may marry upto 4 wives at a time. Islam is today a global religion. About a third of the global population practices Islam. This clearly shows that inherent in the psyche of a large population, there is an acceptance to the notion of permitting polygyny. We have argued that due to this, people must be given the ‘choice’ to decide whether they want to follow such practices or not, and if they do, they must be legally allowed to do so. The opposition could only come up with the argumentation that somehow this would destroy the institution of marriage. Ladies and gentlemen, polygamy is also an institution of marriage! The question here is not of saving one institution at the cost of another, it is of making enough legal elbow room so that both may harmoniously co-exist, although mutually exclusive of each other. As the opposition wants it to be, the question will indeed become one of destroying ‘polygamy’ to save ‘monogamy’. We, as a reasonable government, wish to safeguard the interests of both viewpoints.
The opposition also told you of the evils of overpopulation and socio-economic inequality. Firstly, given a scenario where one man has ,say, ‘y’ wives and hence produces say ‘x’ number of children and comparing it to a case where ‘y’ men have ‘y wives’ and produce say ‘z’ number of children- it would be rational to assume that x is less than z simply because one man providing for more kids is rather a difficult task . Even in the case of polyandry(one woman producing ‘x’ kids from ‘y’ husbands and ‘y’ women producing ‘z’ kids from ‘y’ husbands), we would see no increase in population. Obviously, every woman has a limit to the number of children she can bear(physiologically)! Here also, x is less than or equal to z. Thus, the problem of overpopulation gets tackled, at least in a relative sort of way. Next, socio-economic inequality exists in status quo also. All the perceived ills of polygamous marriages like dowry system, etc. exist in status quo. Women are still the weaker gender ( by law). If anything, polygamy only improve status quo by allowing for greater cohesion between the many wives(or many husbands) and thus tackling injustice in a much stronger way.
3) Finally , the proposition told you that polygamous tendency was inherent to an individual. We cited scientific research(which is very well permissible as evidence within the scope of such prepared debate). The opposition merely countered by falling back upon destruction of the institution of marriage, which by now appears to have been their only stock argument. I have already shown you how that argument falls. Clearly, this point stands in favour of the proposition, as we have been able to draw a logical connect between innate human desire and the accordance of legality to such desire.
With this ladies and gentlemen, I quickly sum up. I have shown you the major points of clash(3 in munber). In each of the clashes, I performed an extremely unbiased comparison- and sadly, despite that, the proposition has managed to clearly tackle all the perceived harms of the opposition and win all the major points of clash. This hasn’t really been a nonsensical debate. It has clearly been a case of the opposition –
a) Not understanding premise
b) Not having enough of arguments to counter
With this ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to propose.
1) Fundamental right to choice vs. rationality of the individual to make a good and sensible choice.
2) Polygamy being a viable legal and social alternative vs. the potential hazards in the form of economic, social or other perceived costs.
3) Polygamous tendency being inherent to an individual vs. the loss of sanctity of the institution of marriage.
Before I begin the cost benefit analysis, let me complement the DPM on his perspectives and insights into the case. However his beliefs hardly matter to the substance of the case, and are incidental if at all of any value. Speculation about Shri Lalu Yadav’s progeny or whether the honourable DPM believes that dowry crimes shall increase as a result of polygamy, are hardly facts of evidence- hence they do not count as constructives or rebuttals at all. At best, they are opinions, and NOT PROOF.
And now for the cost benefit analysis-
1) The opposition seems to believe that the government wants to convert every monogamous individual to polygamous. Clearly the proposition has stated that we only want to make polygamy a legally available alternative. Hence, there ought to be no contention on this premise. Next, the opposition seems to be clearly hesitant in considering citizens of India rational enough in making choices. This is clearly an unreasonable generalization. However uneducated or poor a person may be, it is by and large reasonable to assume that the individual is mindful of his/her best interests and will,in any circumstance(be it compelled or free will), make a choice that he/she finds most suitable at such a time. Let me remind the opposition that monogamy also rests on the premise that individuals are rational enough to enter into matrimonial alliances. Why then such frivolous assumptions in the case of polygamy. Clearly, this exposes double standards.
A very interesting fact is that the DPM actually said “ We need to 1st make our people understand how rising population… large families are detrimental to society in general and to them in particular…” . He inherently concedes to the fact that if people understand family planning, then polygamy may not be such a bad thing after all ! This is presumably his 2nd step …
The proposition also fails to see how “It will lead to excess men who cannot find wives and hence younger girls will be used.”(quoting the DPM). Is the opposition’s case based on polygyny alone? If so, they already concede to half our case without me breaking sweat. If not, then this line of defence is invalid, since there is an equal probability of polyandry which will tend to cancel out the effects as perceived.
The proposition has clearly shown you how a rational individual will have the liberty to make a choice, as against a legal ban. The opposition has come up with skewed argumentation along the lines of people not being rational enough to make the choice. The proposition merely wants to provide a legal alternative, while the opposition is afraid that “lawyers will have a field day”. Ladies and gentlemen, we need to generate employment in our country!(please take this as a rather dry piece of humour) The proposition seems to be afraid of passing the law only since “the changes would be endless.” Is the fear of change their only reason to deny citizens their rights? If so, they are going against the very fundamental purpose of laws- which are meant to enforce rights.
2) The opposition has been magnanimous enough to point out flaws in the system of polygamy. Breakdown of family machinery in the form of jealousy and lack of time, economic troubles for poorer sections, overpopulation as a potential hazard of polygamy, and social inequality creation between the genders and also between various strata of society were all the arguments put forth by the opposition.
As the proposition, we have argued that legalizing polygamy doesn’t mean replacing monogamy with polygamy- it simply means giving people a choice to decide which system of marriage they would want to follow. We told you that family machinery wouldn’t break down, because people who became part of such a family opted to be part of this setup. The opposition merely countered by saying that somehow jealousy would not allow for harmonious existence. If so, there is always the legal route out of such a marriage! If two individuals cannot harmoniously co-exist, they may choose to separate legally(or ‘divorce’) . However, presuming that divorce is an imminent consequence and thereby disallowing the legalization of polygamy is akin to saying that people must never get married simply because they would probably not last as a couple- a rather presumptuous and hollow argument by the opposition, which defeats their cause of monogamy too.
We told you that polygamy is viable legally and socially. Islam follows the system of polygyny, wherein a man may marry upto 4 wives at a time. Islam is today a global religion. About a third of the global population practices Islam. This clearly shows that inherent in the psyche of a large population, there is an acceptance to the notion of permitting polygyny. We have argued that due to this, people must be given the ‘choice’ to decide whether they want to follow such practices or not, and if they do, they must be legally allowed to do so. The opposition could only come up with the argumentation that somehow this would destroy the institution of marriage. Ladies and gentlemen, polygamy is also an institution of marriage! The question here is not of saving one institution at the cost of another, it is of making enough legal elbow room so that both may harmoniously co-exist, although mutually exclusive of each other. As the opposition wants it to be, the question will indeed become one of destroying ‘polygamy’ to save ‘monogamy’. We, as a reasonable government, wish to safeguard the interests of both viewpoints.
The opposition also told you of the evils of overpopulation and socio-economic inequality. Firstly, given a scenario where one man has ,say, ‘y’ wives and hence produces say ‘x’ number of children and comparing it to a case where ‘y’ men have ‘y wives’ and produce say ‘z’ number of children- it would be rational to assume that x is less than z simply because one man providing for more kids is rather a difficult task . Even in the case of polyandry(one woman producing ‘x’ kids from ‘y’ husbands and ‘y’ women producing ‘z’ kids from ‘y’ husbands), we would see no increase in population. Obviously, every woman has a limit to the number of children she can bear(physiologically)! Here also, x is less than or equal to z. Thus, the problem of overpopulation gets tackled, at least in a relative sort of way. Next, socio-economic inequality exists in status quo also. All the perceived ills of polygamous marriages like dowry system, etc. exist in status quo. Women are still the weaker gender ( by law). If anything, polygamy only improve status quo by allowing for greater cohesion between the many wives(or many husbands) and thus tackling injustice in a much stronger way.
3) Finally , the proposition told you that polygamous tendency was inherent to an individual. We cited scientific research(which is very well permissible as evidence within the scope of such prepared debate). The opposition merely countered by falling back upon destruction of the institution of marriage, which by now appears to have been their only stock argument. I have already shown you how that argument falls. Clearly, this point stands in favour of the proposition, as we have been able to draw a logical connect between innate human desire and the accordance of legality to such desire.
With this ladies and gentlemen, I quickly sum up. I have shown you the major points of clash(3 in munber). In each of the clashes, I performed an extremely unbiased comparison- and sadly, despite that, the proposition has managed to clearly tackle all the perceived harms of the opposition and win all the major points of clash. This hasn’t really been a nonsensical debate. It has clearly been a case of the opposition –
a) Not understanding premise
b) Not having enough of arguments to counter
With this ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to propose.
Prop Whip
Ladies and gentlemen, as the proposition whip, my job is to provide to you a cost-benefit analysis and show you how the proposition has clearly managed to win all the major points of clash. Firstly, let us take a look at the 3 major points of clash-
1) Fundamental right to choice vs. rationality of the individual to make a good and sensible choice.
2) Polygamy being a viable legal and social alternative vs. the potential hazards in the form of economic, social or other perceived costs.
3) Polygamous tendency being inherent to an individual vs. the loss of sanctity of the institution of marriage.
Before I begin the cost benefit analysis, let me complement the DPM on his perspectives and insights into the case. However his beliefs hardly matter to the substance of the case, and are incidental if at all of any value. Speculation about Shri Lalu Yadav’s progeny or whether the honourable DPM believes that dowry crimes shall increase as a result of polygamy, are hardly facts of evidence- hence they do not count as constructives or rebuttals at all. At best, they are opinions, and NOT PROOF.
And now for the cost benefit analysis-
1) The opposition seems to believe that the government wants to convert every monogamous individual to polygamous. Clearly the proposition has stated that we only want to make polygamy a legally available alternative. Hence, there ought to be no contention on this premise. Next, the opposition seems to be clearly hesitant in considering citizens of India rational enough in making choices. This is clearly an unreasonable generalization. However uneducated or poor a person may be, it is by and large reasonable to assume that the individual is mindful of his/her best interests and will,in any circumstance(be it compelled or free will), make a choice that he/she finds most suitable at such a time. Let me remind the opposition that monogamy also rests on the premise that individuals are rational enough to enter into matrimonial alliances. Why then such frivolous assumptions in the case of polygamy. Clearly, this exposes double standards.
A very interesting fact is that the DPM actually said “ We need to 1st make our people understand how rising population… large families are detrimental to society in general and to them in particular…” . He inherently concedes to the fact that if people understand family planning, then polygamy may not be such a bad thing after all ! This is presumably his 2nd step …
The proposition also fails to see how “It will lead to excess men who cannot find wives and hence younger girls will be used.”(quoting the DPM). Is the opposition’s case based on polygyny alone? If so, they already concede to half our case without me breaking sweat. If not, then this line of defence is invalid, since there is an equal probability of polyandry which will tend to cancel out the effects as perceived.
The proposition has clearly shown you how a rational individual will have the liberty to make a choice, as against a legal ban. The opposition has come up with skewed argumentation along the lines of people not being rational enough to make the choice. The proposition merely wants to provide a legal alternative, while the opposition is afraid that “lawyers will have a field day”. Ladies and gentlemen, we need to generate employment in our country!(please take this as a rather dry piece of humour) The proposition seems to be afraid of passing the law only since “the changes would be endless.” Is the fear of change their only reason to deny citizens their rights? If so, they are going against the very fundamental purpose of laws- which are meant to enforce rights.
2) The opposition has been magnanimous enough to point out flaws in the system of polygamy. Breakdown of family machinery in the form of jealousy and lack of time, economic troubles for poorer sections, overpopulation as a potential hazard of polygamy, and social inequality creation between the genders and also between various strata of society were all the arguments put forth by the opposition.
As the proposition, we have argued that legalizing polygamy doesn’t mean replacing monogamy with polygamy- it simply means giving people a choice to decide which system of marriage they would want to follow. We told you that family machinery wouldn’t break down, because people who became part of such a family opted to be part of this setup. The opposition merely countered by saying that somehow jealousy would not allow for harmonious existence. If so, there is always the legal route out of such a marriage! If two individuals cannot harmoniously co-exist, they may choose to separate legally(or ‘divorce’) . However, presuming that divorce is an imminent consequence and thereby disallowing the legalization of polygamy is akin to saying that people must never get married simply because they would probably not last as a couple- a rather presumptuous and hollow argument by the opposition, which defeats their cause of monogamy too.
We told you that polygamy is viable legally and socially. Islam follows the system of polygyny, wherein a man may marry upto 4 wives at a time. Islam is today a global religion. About a third of the global population practices Islam. This clearly shows that inherent in the psyche of a large population, there is an acceptance to the notion of permitting polygyny. We have argued that due to this, people must be given the ‘choice’ to decide whether they want to follow such practices or not, and if they do, they must be legally allowed to do so. The opposition could only come up with the argumentation that somehow this would destroy the institution of marriage. Ladies and gentlemen, polygamy is also an institution of marriage! The question here is not of saving one institution at the cost of another, it is of making enough legal elbow room so that both may harmoniously co-exist, although mutually exclusive of each other. As the opposition wants it to be, the question will indeed become one of destroying ‘polygamy’ to save ‘monogamy’. We, as a reasonable government, wish to safeguard the interests of both viewpoints.
The opposition also told you of the evils of overpopulation and socio-economic inequality. Firstly, given a scenario where one man has ,say, ‘y’ wives and hence produces say ‘x’ number of children and comparing it to a case where ‘y’ men have ‘y wives’ and produce say ‘z’ number of children- it would be rational to assume that x is less than z simply because one man providing for more kids is rather a difficult task . Even in the case of polyandry(one woman producing ‘x’ kids from ‘y’ husbands and ‘y’ women producing ‘z’ kids from ‘y’ husbands), we would see no increase in population. Obviously, every woman has a limit to the number of children she can bear(physiologically)! Here also, x is less than or equal to z. Thus, the problem of overpopulation gets tackled, at least in a relative sort of way. Next, socio-economic inequality exists in status quo also. All the perceived ills of polygamous marriages like dowry system, etc. exist in status quo. Women are still the weaker gender ( by law). If anything, polygamy only improve status quo by allowing for greater cohesion between the many wives(or many husbands) and thus tackling injustice in a much stronger way.
3) Finally , the proposition told you that polygamous tendency was inherent to an individual. We cited scientific research(which is very well permissible as evidence within the scope of such prepared debate). The opposition merely countered by falling back upon destruction of the institution of marriage, which by now appears to have been their only stock argument. I have already shown you how that argument falls. Clearly, this point stands in favour of the proposition, as we have been able to draw a logical connect between innate human desire and the accordance of legality to such desire.
With this ladies and gentlemen, I quickly sum up. I have shown you the major points of clash(3 in munber). In each of the clashes, I performed an extremely unbiased comparison- and sadly, despite that, the proposition has managed to clearly tackle all the perceived harms of the opposition and win all the major points of clash. This hasn’t really been a nonsensical debate. It has clearly been a case of the opposition –
a) Not understanding premise
b) Not having enough of arguments to counter
With this ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to propose.
1) Fundamental right to choice vs. rationality of the individual to make a good and sensible choice.
2) Polygamy being a viable legal and social alternative vs. the potential hazards in the form of economic, social or other perceived costs.
3) Polygamous tendency being inherent to an individual vs. the loss of sanctity of the institution of marriage.
Before I begin the cost benefit analysis, let me complement the DPM on his perspectives and insights into the case. However his beliefs hardly matter to the substance of the case, and are incidental if at all of any value. Speculation about Shri Lalu Yadav’s progeny or whether the honourable DPM believes that dowry crimes shall increase as a result of polygamy, are hardly facts of evidence- hence they do not count as constructives or rebuttals at all. At best, they are opinions, and NOT PROOF.
And now for the cost benefit analysis-
1) The opposition seems to believe that the government wants to convert every monogamous individual to polygamous. Clearly the proposition has stated that we only want to make polygamy a legally available alternative. Hence, there ought to be no contention on this premise. Next, the opposition seems to be clearly hesitant in considering citizens of India rational enough in making choices. This is clearly an unreasonable generalization. However uneducated or poor a person may be, it is by and large reasonable to assume that the individual is mindful of his/her best interests and will,in any circumstance(be it compelled or free will), make a choice that he/she finds most suitable at such a time. Let me remind the opposition that monogamy also rests on the premise that individuals are rational enough to enter into matrimonial alliances. Why then such frivolous assumptions in the case of polygamy. Clearly, this exposes double standards.
A very interesting fact is that the DPM actually said “ We need to 1st make our people understand how rising population… large families are detrimental to society in general and to them in particular…” . He inherently concedes to the fact that if people understand family planning, then polygamy may not be such a bad thing after all ! This is presumably his 2nd step …
The proposition also fails to see how “It will lead to excess men who cannot find wives and hence younger girls will be used.”(quoting the DPM). Is the opposition’s case based on polygyny alone? If so, they already concede to half our case without me breaking sweat. If not, then this line of defence is invalid, since there is an equal probability of polyandry which will tend to cancel out the effects as perceived.
The proposition has clearly shown you how a rational individual will have the liberty to make a choice, as against a legal ban. The opposition has come up with skewed argumentation along the lines of people not being rational enough to make the choice. The proposition merely wants to provide a legal alternative, while the opposition is afraid that “lawyers will have a field day”. Ladies and gentlemen, we need to generate employment in our country!(please take this as a rather dry piece of humour) The proposition seems to be afraid of passing the law only since “the changes would be endless.” Is the fear of change their only reason to deny citizens their rights? If so, they are going against the very fundamental purpose of laws- which are meant to enforce rights.
2) The opposition has been magnanimous enough to point out flaws in the system of polygamy. Breakdown of family machinery in the form of jealousy and lack of time, economic troubles for poorer sections, overpopulation as a potential hazard of polygamy, and social inequality creation between the genders and also between various strata of society were all the arguments put forth by the opposition.
As the proposition, we have argued that legalizing polygamy doesn’t mean replacing monogamy with polygamy- it simply means giving people a choice to decide which system of marriage they would want to follow. We told you that family machinery wouldn’t break down, because people who became part of such a family opted to be part of this setup. The opposition merely countered by saying that somehow jealousy would not allow for harmonious existence. If so, there is always the legal route out of such a marriage! If two individuals cannot harmoniously co-exist, they may choose to separate legally(or ‘divorce’) . However, presuming that divorce is an imminent consequence and thereby disallowing the legalization of polygamy is akin to saying that people must never get married simply because they would probably not last as a couple- a rather presumptuous and hollow argument by the opposition, which defeats their cause of monogamy too.
We told you that polygamy is viable legally and socially. Islam follows the system of polygyny, wherein a man may marry upto 4 wives at a time. Islam is today a global religion. About a third of the global population practices Islam. This clearly shows that inherent in the psyche of a large population, there is an acceptance to the notion of permitting polygyny. We have argued that due to this, people must be given the ‘choice’ to decide whether they want to follow such practices or not, and if they do, they must be legally allowed to do so. The opposition could only come up with the argumentation that somehow this would destroy the institution of marriage. Ladies and gentlemen, polygamy is also an institution of marriage! The question here is not of saving one institution at the cost of another, it is of making enough legal elbow room so that both may harmoniously co-exist, although mutually exclusive of each other. As the opposition wants it to be, the question will indeed become one of destroying ‘polygamy’ to save ‘monogamy’. We, as a reasonable government, wish to safeguard the interests of both viewpoints.
The opposition also told you of the evils of overpopulation and socio-economic inequality. Firstly, given a scenario where one man has ,say, ‘y’ wives and hence produces say ‘x’ number of children and comparing it to a case where ‘y’ men have ‘y wives’ and produce say ‘z’ number of children- it would be rational to assume that x is less than z simply because one man providing for more kids is rather a difficult task . Even in the case of polyandry(one woman producing ‘x’ kids from ‘y’ husbands and ‘y’ women producing ‘z’ kids from ‘y’ husbands), we would see no increase in population. Obviously, every woman has a limit to the number of children she can bear(physiologically)! Here also, x is less than or equal to z. Thus, the problem of overpopulation gets tackled, at least in a relative sort of way. Next, socio-economic inequality exists in status quo also. All the perceived ills of polygamous marriages like dowry system, etc. exist in status quo. Women are still the weaker gender ( by law). If anything, polygamy only improve status quo by allowing for greater cohesion between the many wives(or many husbands) and thus tackling injustice in a much stronger way.
3) Finally , the proposition told you that polygamous tendency was inherent to an individual. We cited scientific research(which is very well permissible as evidence within the scope of such prepared debate). The opposition merely countered by falling back upon destruction of the institution of marriage, which by now appears to have been their only stock argument. I have already shown you how that argument falls. Clearly, this point stands in favour of the proposition, as we have been able to draw a logical connect between innate human desire and the accordance of legality to such desire.
With this ladies and gentlemen, I quickly sum up. I have shown you the major points of clash(3 in munber). In each of the clashes, I performed an extremely unbiased comparison- and sadly, despite that, the proposition has managed to clearly tackle all the perceived harms of the opposition and win all the major points of clash. This hasn’t really been a nonsensical debate. It has clearly been a case of the opposition –
a) Not understanding premise
b) Not having enough of arguments to counter
With this ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to propose.
Thursday, October 15, 2009
DLOs speech
The government’s stand in this debate is this:
1) Polygamy helps society economically
2) Polygamy will stop infidelity, aids and abusive relationships,
3) Polygamy has good effects it has on children.
4) Evolution of social and cultural traditions demands a change in laws that govern them;
5) Polygamy: nature’s way
6) Fundamental right to choice
Let me 1st begin by rebutting all the pts made by the prop...
The pm in his speech talked about how ‘polygamy will have a positive effect on the economy.’ In this he talked about the very idealistic case of rich man having many wives and poor men all marrying one wife. Let me remind the pm that India continues to be a socially backward country with low literacy rates. India continues to be a very patriarchal male dominated society. Thus the chances of 1 man marrying many women far outweigh that of 1 woman marrying many men. Imagine a not so hunky dory case in which one poor man would marry many say 5 wives. We would have him producing 20 kids instead of 4 clearly not the most idealistic situation for India. A better way to control population would be education....
About AIDS and infidelity, imagine 1 man marrying many wives... what stops the woman from being infidel.... doesn’t she want sexual variety....... Also there is no reason for Indian adults to get themselves tested for AIDS before marriage if u legalize polygamy
They are not getting themselves tested once today in the prevalent system what makes u believe Mr. prime minister that they will get themselves tested multiple times??
Since our PM loves to take examples from Hindu mythology (folk tales let me remind you) to back his points let me take one too. In the Ramayana Kaikeyi asks for her step son too be sent to vanvasa for 14 years... Was that a good effect on children of dashratha because of polygamy?
It is clear that polygamy will only lead to jealousy amongst the multiple spouses..... It will lead to many family fights over property...
. It will lead to promotion of one’s own child over the other...
Further in a society like ours a wife who bears a son would be treated much better than a wife who bears a daughter.
Moving on I hope our DPM had seen a little more of India or study our demographics a little better... While it is true that in India the number of working women is increasing in the cities it is also true that the same is not happening in our villages... The women in our villages continue to be oppressed and uneducated ... might I remind our dpm that women in our villages (which is the vast majority of total women in India) simply do not have the courage to express their sexual needs. A better solution to this problem I would say is education and I would request this house to not waste time on this proposal and to concentrate on India’s real needs and demands.
Further the dpm in his speech also mentioned that polygamy can remove Forced arranged marriages, dowry crimes, domestic violence... On the contrary I believe that polygamy will result in an increase in dowry crimes.... simply a man would become greedy and marry more times instead of once. Thus he would get dowry multiple times.
It would also increase arrange marriages for the same above mentioned reason... Again I would like to remind our dpm to look that the vast majority of our population which is uneducated, extremely poor and lives in rural areas....
Please look outside our cities Mr. Deputy Prime Minister.
Unfortunately the government in their proposal thinks that polygamy will be good for the country because “all rational people will take advantage of polygamy and exercise their right to choice in such a way which benefits them and the country...”
I wish this were true for all laws that we implement... Just check if the law makes sense to rational people and pass it….
It again brings us to the bare facts of our country… India does not have the education levels required for this law too be used responsibly…. We need to 1st make our people understand how rising population… large families are detrimental to society in general and to them in particular… Oh by the way if polygamy were legalized then according to our PM Lalu Prasad Yadav should marry multiple times(because he’s rich)……. He has 9 right now how many do you think he’ll have then sir??
Moving on to my constructive….
Problems of a polygamous society are many. In India they will include the need to restrict women's rights to force their participation. It will lead to excess men who cannot find wives and hence younger girls will be used.
Further men with many children will not possibly find time to spend with each of them.
Women in India will never get to design and choose polygamous life styles. In India, rural women have no choice but to either starve or marry (majority of them). Very few women choose to be the sixth wife of an old man if given any other opportunities.
If polygamy were legalized lawyers would have a field day. The legal issues include health insurance for partners, inheritance, divorce, custody, welfare. There are dozens more. Marriage of two people is so deeply ingrained in all our laws, the changes would be endless.
Let me conclude…
I have showed how the government’s points are absolutely non-sensical and pointless... I have also told you that in a society like India polygamy will result in various legal issues, and would further restrict the rights of women…
Thus for all these reasons I am very, very proud to oppose
1) Polygamy helps society economically
2) Polygamy will stop infidelity, aids and abusive relationships,
3) Polygamy has good effects it has on children.
4) Evolution of social and cultural traditions demands a change in laws that govern them;
5) Polygamy: nature’s way
6) Fundamental right to choice
Let me 1st begin by rebutting all the pts made by the prop...
The pm in his speech talked about how ‘polygamy will have a positive effect on the economy.’ In this he talked about the very idealistic case of rich man having many wives and poor men all marrying one wife. Let me remind the pm that India continues to be a socially backward country with low literacy rates. India continues to be a very patriarchal male dominated society. Thus the chances of 1 man marrying many women far outweigh that of 1 woman marrying many men. Imagine a not so hunky dory case in which one poor man would marry many say 5 wives. We would have him producing 20 kids instead of 4 clearly not the most idealistic situation for India. A better way to control population would be education....
About AIDS and infidelity, imagine 1 man marrying many wives... what stops the woman from being infidel.... doesn’t she want sexual variety....... Also there is no reason for Indian adults to get themselves tested for AIDS before marriage if u legalize polygamy
They are not getting themselves tested once today in the prevalent system what makes u believe Mr. prime minister that they will get themselves tested multiple times??
Since our PM loves to take examples from Hindu mythology (folk tales let me remind you) to back his points let me take one too. In the Ramayana Kaikeyi asks for her step son too be sent to vanvasa for 14 years... Was that a good effect on children of dashratha because of polygamy?
It is clear that polygamy will only lead to jealousy amongst the multiple spouses..... It will lead to many family fights over property...
. It will lead to promotion of one’s own child over the other...
Further in a society like ours a wife who bears a son would be treated much better than a wife who bears a daughter.
Moving on I hope our DPM had seen a little more of India or study our demographics a little better... While it is true that in India the number of working women is increasing in the cities it is also true that the same is not happening in our villages... The women in our villages continue to be oppressed and uneducated ... might I remind our dpm that women in our villages (which is the vast majority of total women in India) simply do not have the courage to express their sexual needs. A better solution to this problem I would say is education and I would request this house to not waste time on this proposal and to concentrate on India’s real needs and demands.
Further the dpm in his speech also mentioned that polygamy can remove Forced arranged marriages, dowry crimes, domestic violence... On the contrary I believe that polygamy will result in an increase in dowry crimes.... simply a man would become greedy and marry more times instead of once. Thus he would get dowry multiple times.
It would also increase arrange marriages for the same above mentioned reason... Again I would like to remind our dpm to look that the vast majority of our population which is uneducated, extremely poor and lives in rural areas....
Please look outside our cities Mr. Deputy Prime Minister.
Unfortunately the government in their proposal thinks that polygamy will be good for the country because “all rational people will take advantage of polygamy and exercise their right to choice in such a way which benefits them and the country...”
I wish this were true for all laws that we implement... Just check if the law makes sense to rational people and pass it….
It again brings us to the bare facts of our country… India does not have the education levels required for this law too be used responsibly…. We need to 1st make our people understand how rising population… large families are detrimental to society in general and to them in particular… Oh by the way if polygamy were legalized then according to our PM Lalu Prasad Yadav should marry multiple times(because he’s rich)……. He has 9 right now how many do you think he’ll have then sir??
Moving on to my constructive….
Problems of a polygamous society are many. In India they will include the need to restrict women's rights to force their participation. It will lead to excess men who cannot find wives and hence younger girls will be used.
Further men with many children will not possibly find time to spend with each of them.
Women in India will never get to design and choose polygamous life styles. In India, rural women have no choice but to either starve or marry (majority of them). Very few women choose to be the sixth wife of an old man if given any other opportunities.
If polygamy were legalized lawyers would have a field day. The legal issues include health insurance for partners, inheritance, divorce, custody, welfare. There are dozens more. Marriage of two people is so deeply ingrained in all our laws, the changes would be endless.
Let me conclude…
I have showed how the government’s points are absolutely non-sensical and pointless... I have also told you that in a society like India polygamy will result in various legal issues, and would further restrict the rights of women…
Thus for all these reasons I am very, very proud to oppose
Tuesday, October 13, 2009
DPM speech
Ladies and gentlemen, the deputy Prime Minister will now speak on behalf of the government.
In my speech, while elaborating on what my PM said, I will rebut most of the LO’s points and then make a couple of my own.
Specifically:
1. Evolution of social and cultural traditions demand a change in laws that govern them;
2. Polgamy: nature’s way.
Before making any reference to statements made by the LO, let the Deputy Prime Minister remind everyone that if legalised, polygamy would just simply be another option for people to resort to.
The government does not expect polygamy to be all-inclusive and universal. On the contrary, it is most likely for polygamy to be confined to the section of society that believes firstly, that it is a morally acceptable practice and secondly, that it is a feasible one. And we certainly do not believe that it will destroy monogamy.
The recent decriminalisation of homosexuality neither rendered over a billion Indians gay, nor did it destroy heterosexuality.
As you might notice, what the Deputy Prime Minister has just said, intrinsically nullifies two of the qualms that the LO raised.
Statements that:
1. Polygamy would have grave social costs, eventually leading to an increase in demand for prostitutes (in this point, the LO treats women as commodities);
2. Polygamy would have a detrimental effect on upbringing of children;
Are both just situational cases.
Let the Deputy Prime Minister remind this House of Parliament that while the Government fully understands the possible ills of polygamy, we reiterate that in cases where the ills of polygamy outweigh the benefits, rational adult citizens can chose to conform to monogamy, or remain single. And in cases where the benefits of polygamy outweigh the ills, rational adult citizens can chose to be polygamous.
Stress on the word ‘chose.’ This motion raised by the government enhances our citizens’ Right to Choice.
This brings the Deputy PM to the burden of the argument. If polygamy, practiced by those who believe it to be an acceptable as well as a feasible practice, causes no harm to anyone involved, then it is appropriate to decriminalise it.
Constructively, the Deputy PM will point to the fact that cultural and societal norms are changing. Traditionally, the stereotype of a nuclear family, almost anywhere in the world consisted of a working man, whose wife’s responsibility was to ensure the smooth functioning of the household and upbringing of children.
But these traditions arose in the social climate that existed several years ago. In those times women were not allowed to work, and people were a lot less expressive about sexual desires. In a country in which the percentage and number of working women is constantly increasing. And in a time when people are more and more expressive about their varying sexual needs. It is evident that domestic laws, such as the one governing polygamy, need to change.
Just imagine, a couple of hundred years ago, people were probably having a debate, similar to this one, on whether women should be allowed to work. Society clearly is evolving.
Going back to the Leader of Opposition’s ‘valiant’ defence of the “institution of marriage,” the Deputy Prime Minister would like to point out to this House that the “institution of marriage” is already collapsing.
Forced arranged marriages, dowry crimes, domestic violence and infidelity, among other issues brew a large amount of dissatisfaction amongst monogamous couples. Legalisation of polygamy provides people the option of finding satisfaction in another partner, if they deem it morally and practically appropriate.
The next thing the DPM would like to bring to the notice of this House with regards to polygamy is that it is completely natural. Scientific research indicates that human beings, like other mammals are meant to have more than one partner and that they desire more than one partner. So why should we combat this natural urge by imposing a legal barrier?
After having told you why polygamy can possibly aid an evolving society in attaining a marital system that satisfies their needs and that polygamy is fundamentally a natural tendency, the Deputy Prime Minister would like to again stress that the crux of the government’s argument is that polygamy will entirely be a matter of choice. There are cases in which it is a better option than monogamy. We believe that the citizens of our country, acting in their own interest will practice polygamy ONLY when it does not cause any harm to their family.
With that the Deputy Prime Minister is proud to conclude.
In my speech, while elaborating on what my PM said, I will rebut most of the LO’s points and then make a couple of my own.
Specifically:
1. Evolution of social and cultural traditions demand a change in laws that govern them;
2. Polgamy: nature’s way.
Before making any reference to statements made by the LO, let the Deputy Prime Minister remind everyone that if legalised, polygamy would just simply be another option for people to resort to.
The government does not expect polygamy to be all-inclusive and universal. On the contrary, it is most likely for polygamy to be confined to the section of society that believes firstly, that it is a morally acceptable practice and secondly, that it is a feasible one. And we certainly do not believe that it will destroy monogamy.
The recent decriminalisation of homosexuality neither rendered over a billion Indians gay, nor did it destroy heterosexuality.
As you might notice, what the Deputy Prime Minister has just said, intrinsically nullifies two of the qualms that the LO raised.
Statements that:
1. Polygamy would have grave social costs, eventually leading to an increase in demand for prostitutes (in this point, the LO treats women as commodities);
2. Polygamy would have a detrimental effect on upbringing of children;
Are both just situational cases.
Let the Deputy Prime Minister remind this House of Parliament that while the Government fully understands the possible ills of polygamy, we reiterate that in cases where the ills of polygamy outweigh the benefits, rational adult citizens can chose to conform to monogamy, or remain single. And in cases where the benefits of polygamy outweigh the ills, rational adult citizens can chose to be polygamous.
Stress on the word ‘chose.’ This motion raised by the government enhances our citizens’ Right to Choice.
This brings the Deputy PM to the burden of the argument. If polygamy, practiced by those who believe it to be an acceptable as well as a feasible practice, causes no harm to anyone involved, then it is appropriate to decriminalise it.
Constructively, the Deputy PM will point to the fact that cultural and societal norms are changing. Traditionally, the stereotype of a nuclear family, almost anywhere in the world consisted of a working man, whose wife’s responsibility was to ensure the smooth functioning of the household and upbringing of children.
But these traditions arose in the social climate that existed several years ago. In those times women were not allowed to work, and people were a lot less expressive about sexual desires. In a country in which the percentage and number of working women is constantly increasing. And in a time when people are more and more expressive about their varying sexual needs. It is evident that domestic laws, such as the one governing polygamy, need to change.
Just imagine, a couple of hundred years ago, people were probably having a debate, similar to this one, on whether women should be allowed to work. Society clearly is evolving.
Going back to the Leader of Opposition’s ‘valiant’ defence of the “institution of marriage,” the Deputy Prime Minister would like to point out to this House that the “institution of marriage” is already collapsing.
Forced arranged marriages, dowry crimes, domestic violence and infidelity, among other issues brew a large amount of dissatisfaction amongst monogamous couples. Legalisation of polygamy provides people the option of finding satisfaction in another partner, if they deem it morally and practically appropriate.
The next thing the DPM would like to bring to the notice of this House with regards to polygamy is that it is completely natural. Scientific research indicates that human beings, like other mammals are meant to have more than one partner and that they desire more than one partner. So why should we combat this natural urge by imposing a legal barrier?
After having told you why polygamy can possibly aid an evolving society in attaining a marital system that satisfies their needs and that polygamy is fundamentally a natural tendency, the Deputy Prime Minister would like to again stress that the crux of the government’s argument is that polygamy will entirely be a matter of choice. There are cases in which it is a better option than monogamy. We believe that the citizens of our country, acting in their own interest will practice polygamy ONLY when it does not cause any harm to their family.
With that the Deputy Prime Minister is proud to conclude.
Wednesday, October 7, 2009
LOs speech
I as the Leader of the opposition accept the definition put forth by the government.
In this speech, I would like to rebut a few points of the government, and then move on to my constructives,
which shall be the following:
1) First, I will show you that polygamy would impose significant social costs in Indian society that would not be nullified by the benefits to the parties involved in polygamous marriages.
2)Secondly, I will show you the detrimental effects polygamy would have on upbringing of children and family life.
3)Thirdly, I will show you how detrimental polygamy would be on a person interested in monogamy.
The Government talked about the fundamental right to choice, with "a rider attached that it shouldn't harm anybody else". But here the government has been inept in proving how polygamy would be harmless to society at large. Polygamy may lead to certain benefits to the parties involved, but would be detrimental to the society. India being largely a male dominated country. There would be some exceptions, but in general, the males are the breadwinners of the family. The rich, as you would well know, would be able to afford more wives than the poor, which would lead to substantial inequality in society. I shall elaborate more on this point in my constructive.
The government has talked about the rationale behind polygamy. Well, I would agree that a system a woman who marries 2 children-wanting males would be economically beneficial to both parties, but it would not lead to a better lifestyle among the children as PM has specified. I shall show you how and why this will happen as a part of my constructive.
Thirdly, the government has talked about how sexual variety is an innate desire of every individual and how polygamy would put an end to infidelity. I would like to ask the government how would they decide the extent of one's need for "sexual variety". If a man is married to 5 women and is happy for a couple of years. Then again, he might want more variety, and would either have sex outside his marriage/s or indulge in more marriages. What is a point of a marriage then? Marriage is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged by society. Polygamy will cause marriage, as an institution to lose its significance. If one could have multiple sexual partners, why would he get married to them anyways? You might as well have a society where the concept of marriage does not exist at all. Even such a society would put an end to the "vices" as specified by the PM.
Moving on to my constructives.
Firstly, Polygamy would impose significant social costs in Indian society that probably would not be nullified by the benefits to the parties involved in polygamous marriages. Given the large disparities in wealth in India, legalizing polygamy would enable wealthy men to have multiple wives which would reduce the supply of women to men of lower incomes and thus aggravate inequality. The resulting shortage of women would lead to queuing, and thus to a high age of marriage for men, which in turn would increase the demand for prostitution. The same argument would apply to polyandry and polygyny equally.
Secondly, polygamy will have serious detrimental effects on upbringing of children and family life. In polygamous households, the father invests less time in the upbringing of his children, because there are more of them. The government says that in a polygamous society, children would get the love of more than two parents. Well, let me remind the Government that a child can have only 2 biological parents. Its an obvious fact that in a competitive household, a person would love his biological child more than his step child. He/she would work more for the betterment of his/her own child. Economic disparities between two spouses of the same person will lead to jealousy among their children, and possibly hatred for their own parent, and consequential breakdown of family affection. There is also less reciprocal affection between husband and wife, because they spend less time together. Household governance under polygamy is bound to be more hierarchical than in monogamous marriage, because the household is larger and the ties of affection weaker. So the husband, as head of the household has to devise and implement means of supervision that would be unnecessary in a monogamous household.
In conclusion i would like to reiterate what all i have told you.
I have rebutted the government's points and showed how how their proposal would lead to the collapse of marriage as an institution. I have told you how polygamy would lead to more harm than benefit in society. I have also told you what serious effects polygamy can cause to the upbringing of children and family life in general.
In this speech, I would like to rebut a few points of the government, and then move on to my constructives,
which shall be the following:
1) First, I will show you that polygamy would impose significant social costs in Indian society that would not be nullified by the benefits to the parties involved in polygamous marriages.
2)Secondly, I will show you the detrimental effects polygamy would have on upbringing of children and family life.
3)Thirdly, I will show you how detrimental polygamy would be on a person interested in monogamy.
The Government talked about the fundamental right to choice, with "a rider attached that it shouldn't harm anybody else". But here the government has been inept in proving how polygamy would be harmless to society at large. Polygamy may lead to certain benefits to the parties involved, but would be detrimental to the society. India being largely a male dominated country. There would be some exceptions, but in general, the males are the breadwinners of the family. The rich, as you would well know, would be able to afford more wives than the poor, which would lead to substantial inequality in society. I shall elaborate more on this point in my constructive.
The government has talked about the rationale behind polygamy. Well, I would agree that a system a woman who marries 2 children-wanting males would be economically beneficial to both parties, but it would not lead to a better lifestyle among the children as PM has specified. I shall show you how and why this will happen as a part of my constructive.
Thirdly, the government has talked about how sexual variety is an innate desire of every individual and how polygamy would put an end to infidelity. I would like to ask the government how would they decide the extent of one's need for "sexual variety". If a man is married to 5 women and is happy for a couple of years. Then again, he might want more variety, and would either have sex outside his marriage/s or indulge in more marriages. What is a point of a marriage then? Marriage is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged by society. Polygamy will cause marriage, as an institution to lose its significance. If one could have multiple sexual partners, why would he get married to them anyways? You might as well have a society where the concept of marriage does not exist at all. Even such a society would put an end to the "vices" as specified by the PM.
Moving on to my constructives.
Firstly, Polygamy would impose significant social costs in Indian society that probably would not be nullified by the benefits to the parties involved in polygamous marriages. Given the large disparities in wealth in India, legalizing polygamy would enable wealthy men to have multiple wives which would reduce the supply of women to men of lower incomes and thus aggravate inequality. The resulting shortage of women would lead to queuing, and thus to a high age of marriage for men, which in turn would increase the demand for prostitution. The same argument would apply to polyandry and polygyny equally.
Secondly, polygamy will have serious detrimental effects on upbringing of children and family life. In polygamous households, the father invests less time in the upbringing of his children, because there are more of them. The government says that in a polygamous society, children would get the love of more than two parents. Well, let me remind the Government that a child can have only 2 biological parents. Its an obvious fact that in a competitive household, a person would love his biological child more than his step child. He/she would work more for the betterment of his/her own child. Economic disparities between two spouses of the same person will lead to jealousy among their children, and possibly hatred for their own parent, and consequential breakdown of family affection. There is also less reciprocal affection between husband and wife, because they spend less time together. Household governance under polygamy is bound to be more hierarchical than in monogamous marriage, because the household is larger and the ties of affection weaker. So the husband, as head of the household has to devise and implement means of supervision that would be unnecessary in a monogamous household.
In conclusion i would like to reiterate what all i have told you.
I have rebutted the government's points and showed how how their proposal would lead to the collapse of marriage as an institution. I have told you how polygamy would lead to more harm than benefit in society. I have also told you what serious effects polygamy can cause to the upbringing of children and family life in general.
Sunday, October 4, 2009
THW legalise Polygmay
PMs speech:
We the government of India are proposing that polygamy should be legalised
Lets first define the word polygamy, it is the involvement of three or more people in a marriage where all three cannot be of the same sex. Now were going to talk to you about a few things :
1.) One is the fundamental right to choice, of course there is a rider attached that it should not harm anybody else. Also were going to talk about how it doesn’t harm anybody
2.) Also we’ll talk about how it will help the all strata of the society economically. And the basic rationale behind polygamy.
3.) Third is the fact that this will stop infidelity, aids and abusive relationships, also we will talk to you about why they are bad and how polygamy will cause reduction.
4.) Fourth will talk about the good effects it has on children.
First We’ll talk about the right that an adult should have to choose his or her partners.
All adults (apart from people with psychiatric disorders) have the mental cognitive capacity to decide what is or is not good for them. If a man or a woman wants to indulge in marriage with multiple partners who are we to stop them as long as they are not being detrimental to somebody elses existence. Now the opposition will tell you that this has an effect on Indias rich culture, but I have to ask how, polygamy in no way promotes immorality, it doesn’t even necessarily hurt cultural sentiments as polygamy as an institution does not promote any vices as such, it is a clean system functioning like any normal family, while those with a good knowledge of Indias culture Id like to remind them that Draupadi practiced polyandry and King Dashrath was a polgynist.
Next comes one of my vital points that kind of explains the rational side to polygamy. Imagine you live in a poorer part of he society, you want to have children but you don’t have the funds to support children a simple solution to this polyandry. You can have one women married to 2 or more children wanting men in this way there will be fewer children than in two separate marriages as women have a limit to how many children they can bear. Also both men will be satisfied for their want of children. The child will thus grow up In a better way with a better lifestyle.
Now in contrast with this are people who live in a richer society they can have more wives thus bearing more children than they normally would have thus leading to many children with a good lifestyle. Thus I hope I have shown you that polygamy will also solve many economic problems also in a country like India where there are more poor people than rich there would be a decrease in the rate of population growth if polygamy is allowed. The best way to look at it is this that by this logic you will also have fewer people sleeping on the streets(bums and hobos) and children will have a better and more equally divided (remember India is socialist) quality of life.
Now we’ll talk about the ills that polygamy will put an end to.
It has been proved by many psychiatric experts that sexual variety is an innate desire of every individual. Polygamy facilitates such a system where the want for sexual variety is fulfilled while staying within the sacred tie of a marriage. Infidelity will stop. That is a good thing as infidelity does unlike polygamy pose a moral harm as it promotes lies and deceit, very bad examples for children. Aids will reduce as now all your partners are known people and can be checked for HIV very easily. Also when it comes to the matter of physically abusive relationships, there is a third person involved in the relationship who can step in to solve problems and to help the victim stand up against the oppressor. Imagine the situation of Josef Fritzl had their been another man or woman this probably would not have happened. In todays cruel world where fathers are turning to their own daughters for their sexual needs, isn’t polygamy the much needed solution to all this outpouring sexual and financial tension that lies in todays world.
My next point is regarding the upbringing of children within the premises of polygamy. In a monogamous system you have only one mother and father, which means there are times when you are neglected (read up working parents). While in a polygamous premise there is a lesser chance of neglection as there are a greater number of parents. Also abusive parents would find it hard to exist as there would be a majority number of people who would oppose their practices thus reducing the chances of a childhood filled of abuse.
So lets recap what I have proved to you.
I’ve proved to you that every adult should have a right to choose how many partners he or she wants, I’ve explained the rational behind polygamy, I’ve told you about the potential it has to stop many vices in society and how it will result in a better environment for children. And so I am proud to propose.
We the government of India are proposing that polygamy should be legalised
Lets first define the word polygamy, it is the involvement of three or more people in a marriage where all three cannot be of the same sex. Now were going to talk to you about a few things :
1.) One is the fundamental right to choice, of course there is a rider attached that it should not harm anybody else. Also were going to talk about how it doesn’t harm anybody
2.) Also we’ll talk about how it will help the all strata of the society economically. And the basic rationale behind polygamy.
3.) Third is the fact that this will stop infidelity, aids and abusive relationships, also we will talk to you about why they are bad and how polygamy will cause reduction.
4.) Fourth will talk about the good effects it has on children.
First We’ll talk about the right that an adult should have to choose his or her partners.
All adults (apart from people with psychiatric disorders) have the mental cognitive capacity to decide what is or is not good for them. If a man or a woman wants to indulge in marriage with multiple partners who are we to stop them as long as they are not being detrimental to somebody elses existence. Now the opposition will tell you that this has an effect on Indias rich culture, but I have to ask how, polygamy in no way promotes immorality, it doesn’t even necessarily hurt cultural sentiments as polygamy as an institution does not promote any vices as such, it is a clean system functioning like any normal family, while those with a good knowledge of Indias culture Id like to remind them that Draupadi practiced polyandry and King Dashrath was a polgynist.
Next comes one of my vital points that kind of explains the rational side to polygamy. Imagine you live in a poorer part of he society, you want to have children but you don’t have the funds to support children a simple solution to this polyandry. You can have one women married to 2 or more children wanting men in this way there will be fewer children than in two separate marriages as women have a limit to how many children they can bear. Also both men will be satisfied for their want of children. The child will thus grow up In a better way with a better lifestyle.
Now in contrast with this are people who live in a richer society they can have more wives thus bearing more children than they normally would have thus leading to many children with a good lifestyle. Thus I hope I have shown you that polygamy will also solve many economic problems also in a country like India where there are more poor people than rich there would be a decrease in the rate of population growth if polygamy is allowed. The best way to look at it is this that by this logic you will also have fewer people sleeping on the streets(bums and hobos) and children will have a better and more equally divided (remember India is socialist) quality of life.
Now we’ll talk about the ills that polygamy will put an end to.
It has been proved by many psychiatric experts that sexual variety is an innate desire of every individual. Polygamy facilitates such a system where the want for sexual variety is fulfilled while staying within the sacred tie of a marriage. Infidelity will stop. That is a good thing as infidelity does unlike polygamy pose a moral harm as it promotes lies and deceit, very bad examples for children. Aids will reduce as now all your partners are known people and can be checked for HIV very easily. Also when it comes to the matter of physically abusive relationships, there is a third person involved in the relationship who can step in to solve problems and to help the victim stand up against the oppressor. Imagine the situation of Josef Fritzl had their been another man or woman this probably would not have happened. In todays cruel world where fathers are turning to their own daughters for their sexual needs, isn’t polygamy the much needed solution to all this outpouring sexual and financial tension that lies in todays world.
My next point is regarding the upbringing of children within the premises of polygamy. In a monogamous system you have only one mother and father, which means there are times when you are neglected (read up working parents). While in a polygamous premise there is a lesser chance of neglection as there are a greater number of parents. Also abusive parents would find it hard to exist as there would be a majority number of people who would oppose their practices thus reducing the chances of a childhood filled of abuse.
So lets recap what I have proved to you.
I’ve proved to you that every adult should have a right to choose how many partners he or she wants, I’ve explained the rational behind polygamy, I’ve told you about the potential it has to stop many vices in society and how it will result in a better environment for children. And so I am proud to propose.
Friday, July 31, 2009
THW permit all religious conversions
Background :
In recent years, more and more states in India have enacted laws to restrict religious conversion, particularly targeting conversions via "force" or "allurement."
In Tamil Nadu,
"People using money or other benefits in conversion efforts targeted at these groups would receive four years imprisonment, and a one lakh (one hundred thousand rupee) fine."
In Gujarat,
Legislation goes a step further, making conversion ceremonies contingent upon advance notice and the permission of a district magistrate, given once the magistrate is satisfied that the conversion involves no force or allurement.
In HP,
Those wishing to convert to another religion will have to give a month's notice to the District Magistrate who, after enquiry, will grant permission for the change. It imposes a minimum of two years imprisonment or a fine of 25,000 rupees, or both, on "anyone found guilty of abetting and indulging in conversion from one religion to another by use of force, inducement or fraudulent means.
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Teams
Prop : Hardik, Monil, Ankur, Tejas
Opp : Suzie, Suddu 'The Loved One' Bhatija, Moti, Jhonny
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Prop 1 by Hardik -
The motion before house today is – This house will permit all religious conversion.
By this house I mean the government of India. “Religious conversions” is when a person decides to convert from one religion to another, and does so through a procedure(if there is one). The person will have to simply register with the government regarding the change of religion.
The status quo is that in India many states have different kinds of restrictions on religious conversions. This curbs liberty of a person. There is also the problem so called "forced conversions." We shall deal with it in the course of the speech and tell you how what we are doing will help the situation.
I shall use the words faith and religion interchangeably.
The status quo is that many Indian states have restrictions on religious conversions. Some states permit conversion only when approved of by the state.
We propose as follows-
1)Liberty - We believe in the right to personal freedom of thought, conscience and action. These are the fundamental human rights every human being is entitled to. The Indian constitution ascertains these rights and we abide by it. A person may think and act in any way he wishes as long as it doesn't hurt the interests of the society and the state. The state should in no way interfere with an individual’s personal life if it is not a matter of concern.
2)Secularism - We believe religion is a personal matter and a person has full right to choose his own faith. The state of India is a secular state. Abiding by the essence of secularism, we believe the government should not promote or oppose any religion. We believe in giving the individual complete freedom in choosing his own religion, if he wishes to follow one.
Being a secular state and abiding by the principle of personal freedom, we shall permit all religious conversions.
3)Consequence – Every person has the right to choose for himself and lead a life with liberty. Suppose a person wishes to change his faith, but the government does not allow him to do so. That person is going to be unhappy because he is not allowed to do what he wants to. A person in distress is not going to contribute to society and economy the way he would if he was allowed to. The government definitely does not wish to be the cause for such distress.
4) Now many people believe there exists this problem of forced conversions. This view of mass conversions or even individual conversions is unreasonable. No one can force a person to change his faith. There might be different reasons, completely a persons discretion, as to why a person wants to change his faith. But at the end of the day its the person's choice. Even if masses decide to do so, its still a matter of independent choice. We believe that every individual is rational and is making an informed decision in his own interest. As far as there is no physical force involved, we respect the choice of an individual. Going by our first constructive, we permit all conversions for reasons whatsoever.
If there is physical force involved, then, of course, the person can approach the government, and that shall not be accepted as conversion.
Opp 1 by Suzie -
Note: Government’s stand is not clearly defined. Gathering from the information provided, the following stance has been assumed for the government
1.The government wishes to make conversion completely unregulated
2.Under the new plan, conversions for money will be legal
Principle arguments:
1. In India, religion is an extremely sensitive issue:
a.A large part of the country is religious and cares deeply about its faith
b.Religious inclinations are often strongly linked to political alignments
c.A large part of the riots and disturbances in the country have a religious flavour to them
Essentially, religion is not an issue that can be toyed with. Leaving the field for conversions open and unregulated would be a simple-minded error. The issue requires serious thought whilst keeping in mind the consequences of rampant and unchecked conversions.
2. India is secular and religious freedom should be given to one and all. At the same time, the interests of society as a whole should not be affected negatively by our policies. In essence, it is acceptable for anyone to practice/preach/spread his/her religion as long as the interests of society as a whole are not compromised.
Line of argument:
1. Religious conversions are completely acceptable so long as they are for faith and not for monetary gains or performed under force/coercion
2. Status Quo ensures the above
3. Opening the field for conversions for “any reasons” will have disastrous consequences for society
Rebuttals:
1. Concerns for Liberty, Secularism and religious freedom: Status Quo does not in any way infringe upon these freedoms. In the current situation a person may choose to convert to any religion/faith. The regulations do not disallow conversions. So religious freedom is not hampered. The regulations merely:
a. Ensure that by pre-registration all conversions are inspected. In the plan proposed by the government the onus for reporting coercive/forced conversions depends on the converted individual. The individuals being converted are often poor and uneducated. The parties responsible for conversion are very often powerful and possess political clout. It is unreasonable to expect these people to stand up to these powerful organizations. At the very least, not all cases of coercion will come to light if the onus for reporting cases is left upto the individual.
b. Ensure that conversions are not being performed in return for monetary or material benefits. Why this is essential will be explained later.
Within the regulations, it is very possible, simple even, for someone to convert to another religion if the reason is not monetary or material benefits.
2. “Conversions for any reason”: The government admits that conversions should be free and unhindered “as long as it doesn’t hurt the interests of society and the state”. We will now prove why free conversions for “any reasons” (monetary, material etc.) will in-fact hurt the interests of society and the state.
a. Rapid conversions, if done in exchange for money leads to rival camps feeling cheated and gives rise to tensions between religions/communities, inevitably leading to clashes/riots between people of different religions (e.g. Kandhamal in Orissa, where a spate of apparently forced/bought mass conversions lead to violent clashes and widespread carnage between opposing religious groups). In a situation where it is legal to convert for money, it is not hard to see that communal clashes will be commonplace.
b. In India religion is intrinsically linked with politics and vote banks. Conversions are often sponsored by political groups to rapidly gain large vote banks and change the political demographic of a community/region. In their eagerness to win votes, these groups often employ money or the promise of material benefits in return for conversion. Essentially, conversions for money are in most cases, are a buying of vote banks, which is anyway illegal. So allowing conversions for money is equivalent to allowing buying votes for money.
From these two points it becomes clear that to regard religious conversions for money as merely a personal choice that doesn’t affect society is wholly naïve.
3. Government’s issue with regulation? The government has offered no reason to oppose the regulations that are in place in various states (such as pre-notification for conversion etc).
Constructives:
1. Stick to status quo while encouraging the introduction of regulations in states where it currently does not exist.
Summary:
1. The government’s plan poses a real threat to the stability and law order in the country
2. The government’s plan does not promote religious freedom or liberty any better than status quo, which is an aim the government has set for itself while introducing the plan.
Proposition 2 – Ankur -
The opposition agrees with our belief that freedom to personal faith is sacrosanct, and the contention therefore is only in whether the current set of laws is curtailing it or not.
The chief thrust of these laws is evidently to check conversions by force or allurement, otherwise referred to as illegitimate proselytism.
Going through the wordings of these laws, we find that they make some unwarranted assumptions.
Firstly, it is assumed that if a large group of people seeks conversion at the same time then it must be via force or allurement. What about if an enlightened Buddha preaches his sermon to a bunch of lost souls who all find their path to salvation through it? Will they not be allowed to convert because some law presumes there must be ulterior motives behind it, and actually penalizes them for it?
Secondly, these rules assume that certain groups of society such as lower castes, tribals and women are more susceptible to be lured into religious conversion, and therefore exercises tyrannical regulations preventing their conversion.
I hereby refute the opposition's stand against "Conversion by Allurement".
An individual's decision for religious conversion will always be motivated by gain. People throughout history have converted to new or different religions because they were sick of complicated rituals, or sought their promised land, or wanted to have an equal status with others in society--which the target religion could offer. In the most 'ideal' circumstances, the motive is spiritual gain, but it is gain nevertheless. Now, there is nothing wrong with seeking higher quality of life, so there is nothing inherently wrong with such conversions. For instance, several low-caste Hindus convert to Christianity or Islam as a way of having social equality that they fail to find in Hinduism. If these bills are to be enforced, these people will all face denial of secular freedom.
Let me elaborate the perspective of secular freedom, which the Opposition says is not being violated by the present set of laws.
A secular nation allows each person the right to any faith, and the right to NO faith, as well as the right to a faith so weak that the offer of a cow and a bicycle is enough for that person to change his or her religion.
The problem stated by the opposition is that of communal disharmony which springs from such conversions. This is an extraneous issue--a social one, and justifying the denial of a fundamental human right (which it is according to the UN as well as the Indian constitution) to an individual due to external consequences is unacceptable.
At the core of it, those who are opposing free religious conversion are orthodox religious leaders who are concerned about the change of religious demographics in favour of missionary religions. Instead of "feeling cheated" these people should understand their roles as leaders and do something about the causes which are encouraging followers to become apostates. For example the Sikh community runs ‘langars’, so that none is destitute. If you think and feel for your religion as a community, then do something about its welfare rather than riot about people leaving because they don't have food.
And the government should do their part in the upliftment of people who are so poor and uneducated that they are ready to change their faith in exchange for benefits. Enact laws to provide a certain quality of life to these people rather than stopping them from conversion, for next they will be found selling organs, committing mass suicides or becoming militants, which are worse consequences than even riots.
Questioning the motives of politicians is easy and does not strengthen the opposition’s case. While on the one hand religious conversions are seen akin to purchasing vote banks (as the Opposition states), on the other hand we can see in the bill an attempt to "polarise the state along religious lines" or to "using communal issues to deflect attention from economic and social problems".
As for conversions by force, commonly manifested as powerful factions threatening weaker communities toward conversion, there is certainly no justification. However, the problem in “forced conversions" is with the "force" and not the "conversion", just as treating a person to ice-cream is such a nice thing but force-feeding one isn't. There is nothing wrong with sexual intercourse, but when forced on someone it constitutes nearly the most grievous crime in the book of law. And there are laws to prevent it. The point is that these laws don't require you to submit a CV and an SOP for buying ice-cream or require you to give the government a month's notice before having intercourse.
Lastly, anyone who is falsely misled in some way into religious conversion against one's true will, shall probably soon realize one's folly and long to return. And return he shall with a faith stronger than that which he left with, with certain hope that the all-forgiving god he worships shall take him back. He certainly will not expect to be thwarted by laws other than those of the religion itself, and should not.
Summarizing:
1. Restricting conversions IS a breach of secular freedom.
2. Present laws not clearly serving their purpose and restricting legitimate conversions.
3. Conversions by Allurement--attack the cause (wretched conditions of communities), not the effect. Else, more severe effects will follow.
4. Forced Conversions--Not possible to evaluate beforehand. The law should punish those found guilty of illegitimate proselytization which, in essence, is preventing misuse of force and not the prevention of conversion.
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Opp 2 By Suddu
The Government’s stand in this Debate:
1. The government wishes to make conversion completely unregulated
2. Conversions for money will be legal
3. Conversions by coercion are punishable but the onus to report such coercions lies on the person itself
The Government’s last response:
1. Laws on religious freedom make some unwarranted assumptions
2. Justification of conversion by allurement, banning of which will infringe secular freedom
3. On conversions by force – problem is with the ‘forced’ and not the ‘conversions’
4. People misled into conversions will realize their folly and want to convert back
Rebuttals:
1. Laws on religions freedom/conversion making some unwarranted assumptions:
1. Laws asssuming force/allurement in cases of mass conversion: The proposition needs to realize that these laws were made keeping everyone in mind. The fouding fathers of the constitution felt it reasonable that if a large group was seeking conversion, there were overwhelming chances that it was by force or allurement. And given our background before independance, the extent to which groups are driven for political gain and length to which people will go for personal gain, this was perfectly reasonable. As we have shown earlier, in cases like Kandhamal, such forced/bought mass conversions can cause violent clashes and carnage. Given the likelihood of force/allurement in case of mass conversion, and the violence and damage it can cause, it is reasonable to err on the side of caution and make this assumption. In any case, status quo allows the genuine cases by requiring a pre-emptive investigation into the cause of the conversion. It is safe to assume that the “enlightened” ones will clear this investigation and be allowed to covert. Neither does status quo, nor are we suggesting that these cases should be disallowed in the future.
2. Laws assuming that people of lower castes are more susceptible to conversions: Well, aren’t they? A number of laws have been enacted to protect, yes, protect, the rights of the lower castes and for good reason. They by far have had the worst deal, have been the most ill-treated and exploited category of individuals in pre-independance India. Their social and economic conditions have made them the most susceptible to be coerced (by threat of bodily harm) or lured by material gain into religious conversions. It is our duty to protect these people from such happenings (coercion) which would severely curtail their freedoms which we so passionately defend. Disallowing luring by material gain will be justified as a rebuttal to the next point.
2. On conversion for material gain:
The proposition claims that a secular nation allows each person “the right to any faith, and the right to NO faith, as well as the right to a faith so weak that the offer of a cow and a bicycle is enough for that person to change his or her religion.”` Religion is an explosive issue in the country. Even in the past, conversions have lead to violence and loss of life. This will simply add fuel to the fire. Even if we assume a best case situation where there is no violence, as Tarun mentions, the repeated buying and selling of people’s faiths will inflate the price to buy a conversion. No self respecting religious person would come to terms with his religion being commercialized. In our country, where groups will go to any extent to gain political power, we would be, by virtue of the law, be allowing people to buy votes (which is illegal – I hope the proposition understands why).
The proposition is making a leap of faith by equating spiritual gain with monetary gain. They are not the same and cannot be compared. Even if we allow them to be equated, pursuing gains, by law, has it ethical limits whether it spiritual or monetary. While there is nothing wrong with seeking spiritual gain, we do not allow human sacrifices for religious/spiritual gains because they infringe the right to life of the unfortunate few. While there is nothing wrong with seeking a higher quality of life, we do not allow fraud and prostitution. Any pursuit of gain has to be limited by ethics and the greater interests of society. The proposition seems to be going on about how a fundamental human right is being denied. There are 2 ways to counter this.
1. The laws which are enacted in the constitution in this regard are for the better of society as a whole. All our freedoms have limits for the same reason – absolute freedoms for some means greatly curtailed freedoms for many. Suggesting that an “extraneous” social issue, that can cause catastrophic loss of human life (as we have seen in riots which are religiously motivated), is no reason for curtailing a “fundamental human right”, is as outrageous and deluded as suggesting that we should allow absolute freedom of speech even though it may trigger rioting and violence, not to mention the death of thousands of people. The government needs to keep in mind the larger good of society. If an act like this can (and it has as Sushant exemplified), cause great harm and loss of life, we need to keep that in mind and disallow it.
2. The proposition claims that these bills deny people the right of secular freedom. In this particular case, status quo doesn’t prevent legitimate conversions. The fundaemental rights are by no means denied. They are limited, as are all fundaemental rights. This brings us to the core question of this debate – is this limitation – disallowing people from converting for benefits justified? The fact is that, by not allowing people to convert for economic benefits, we are simply ensuring that people do not convert to wrongly benefit from laws and institutions – benefits that were not rightfully meant for them. Allowing them to do so would be very akin to legalizing fraud – we are simply disallowing people from benefitting from somethings that are not rightfully theirs – we are simply disallowing something that is ethically and morally wrong. And given that in our country, religion is intrinsically linked with politics and vote banks, we are saying is that it is okay to sell you vote for money or other benefits. In a democracy such as ours, where the state encourages its people to be responsible, make an informed choice and vote to decide the government, this would be contradictory to the very goal of this process. We will be allowing money to dominate politics and the governance of our country.
The proposition suggests that this bill is an attempt to “polarise the state along religious lines” or is “using communal issues to deflect attention from economic and social problems". The fact is that the proposition is using economic and social issues to deflect attention from communal ones which in our country are undeniably real. They are trying to make this a debate about whether or not these people should get benefits under the law. What the proposition is telling you is that since these people are economically and socially challenged, due to country’s very pronounced caste system, we should allow them to change their religion to gain on benefits originally meant for others. They are saying that these people will go on to other worse means of livelihood, if they are not allowed to benefit economically from conversions. This is just escapism. No doubt, there should be laws to make sure that these people are benefitted – but that is not the issue of debate. We cannot use the absence of these laws a justification to allow them to swindle money and benefits from public systems – money and benefits which aren’t rightly theirs. Their economic and social issues don’t change the fact that this is morally and ethically unacceptable. Or, that the ramifications this will have by essentially commercializing religion, not to mention blowing an already opened lid on communal violence will be nothing short of catastrophic. Do these people deserve to be liberated from the shackles of the caste system – yes they do. Do these people deserve to live respectfully as people of that particular caste – yes they do. But, realistically speaking, is this what is happening? By a simple allowing people to change their religion, we are simply skirting the issue. Even after conversions, people of that particular caste are still looked down upon. This is not the pervasive change that is required to sort this out both permanently (as we aren’t able to rid society of its notion of castes) or temporarily (where by allowing this, we are opening the lid on even more violence and discontent).
3. On conversions by force:
As Tarun very rightly put it, the connotations of ‘forced’ when it comes to religion are much different from its connotations anywhere else. This is mainly due to the fact that religion is a very touchy issue in our country. Nobody cares about what we do in the privacy of our homes. But when it comes to religion, everyone cares. So when the government requires that any religious conversions be investigated and approved, they are simply taking the necessary precautions, and very rightly so, to ensure that there is no force/allurement involved. The consequences of not enforcing this measure can be tragic.
The government claims that it won’t be possible to evalute these forced conversions beforehand, and that some people guilty of illegitimate proselytization will not be caught. They go on to claim that by allowing the ‘forced’ conversions and investigating later, we are preserving the right to freedom of religion. We find this claim to be absurd. Firstly, in case of a ‘forced conversion’, the conversion wouldn’t be happening if it wasn’t, by definition, coerced. Secular freedom was being violated anyway becuase the conversion itself was forced. We are simply trying to protect secular freedom and a preventive measure is definitely more effective than a detective one, where the onus to report such coersion lies on the coerced itself, who could still be under the perpetual threat of bodily harm. Secondly, a legal investigation into a conversion will definitely be able to detect conversions involving force/allurement. Even if we admit that some cases will not be detected, that is no reason for scrapping the process completely. In order to justify change of status quo with regard to forced conversions, the burden of the proposition is to prove that status quo is harmful / insufficient to the current situation, and provide an alternative. Scrapping investigations because they feel it insufficient, and suggesting detective and not preventive measures doesn’t satisfy this burden.
4. On follies and re-conversions:
Even after 3 responses, the proposition seems to have a deluded idea of what status quo is. Status quo as elaborated in the earlier responses allows any religious conversions as long as they are not forced or allured. Whether or not people realize their follies is not in quesition. The fact remains that status quo doesn’t prevent people from otherwise converting to any religion of their choice (except in case of coersion and allurement), any number of times as they choose to.
To Summarize:
1. The laws limiting religious conversions, keeping in mind the background of our country have made very sound assumptions
2. Conversion for material reasons remains unethical and immoral. Let not the social and economic ineptness of this category of people be used as a justification to allow this. This law doesn’t address their issues in the long term (caste issues still exist) or the short term (lid on communal violence and discontent being blown open)
3. Even though the proposition do not condone conversion by coercive means, their system of dealing with it is inadequate
4. People, by the current set of laws, are not thwarted from conversion or re-conversion any number of times as long as their reasons are genuine
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Prop 3 by Tejas
Ladies and gentlemen,
This debate has seen some extremely flimsy argumentation from the opposition. For one, the opposition doesn’t seem to make up its mind whether it wants to actually argue against the case in practice or for the case in principle. In the course of my speech, I shall show you how the opposition has managed to come up with some inherent contradictions in their argumentation. I shall also go on to do a case benefit analysis to prove how the case run by us, viz. the proposition has been much superior.
POINTS OF CLASH-
1. The nature of status quo.
2. The nature of assumptions made by the laws restricting/regulating/limiting conversions in the country today.
3. The morality involved in religious conversions from the perspective of the individual or the society.
In my speech, I shall take up each of the following points and explain to you how the proposition’s stand on the matter is not only valid, but also superior.
REBUTTALS-
1. The opp seems to have missed the proposition’s point on investigation of conversions. The proposition’s 2nd speaker made it clear that with regards to the issue of what is labelled by the status quo (the one which my worthy opponents propose and that we don’t accept, for reasons I shall explain) as “forced conversions”, it is not possible to evaluate beforehand whether the conversion was ‘forced’ or not. The opp seems to have gone on a tangent with argument on the semantics , and that too without actually getting the point. Hence they come up with flimsy argumentation like “in case of a ‘forced conversion’, the conversion wouldn’t be happening if it wasn’t, by definition, coerced. Secular freedom was being violated anyway because the conversion itself was forced” . Actually , they have not only misunderstood the point, but have conveniently tried to bluff us into believing that they protect secularism, when in fact they are championing secularism with riders( and thus effectively contradicting themselves).
Moreover, their proposal on legal investigation seems to have the same problems that they accuse us of-
1. It can be a biased case, wherein the same high and mighty people may buy off the judiciary. If my worthy opponents talk of practicality, then today’s legal system is nothing but a testimony to the fact that their argument is flawed, for it is often that we see cases going in favour of not the wronged party, but the more influential.
2. It is the judiciary’s word against the individual’s/group’s. What if the conversion wasn’t forced, and yet the judiciary, for some technical proof or lack of it, deems it a forced conversion? By now, we have argued enough on the drawbacks of the legal system to understand that this is a fair possibility. What do my opponents-the protectors of secularism- then do? Ban that conversion?
3. The ‘even if’ argument of the opp itself shows their lack of confidence in their own argument. Hence, all the premptive talk about burdens et al .
2. The opp seems to think that ‘forced religious conversions’ lead to religious clashes. While this may be true in cases, equally true is the fact even non forced religious conversions lead to clashes. Moreover, it is common knowledge that most religious riots have occurred not during the conversion process, but out of the spite born out of the conversion. The conversion may have been perfectly consented, and yet there are religious clashes. If my worthy opponents wish to stop/curb/restrict this sort of occurrence, they should rather be arguing for banning of religious conversions rather than merely placing a check on it. There is in fact a downside to the check-
1. The aggrieved community may feel that the law has been unjust in allowing/disallowing the conversion(as the case may be). In this case, there will not only be factional violence, but also a clash between the individuals and the government. This is in fact a far worse situation.
2. The check, if it does certify the conversion, may well be an indication to the masses about the bias in the state. This is again a worse alternative.
Hence, the opp has failed to show how judicial intervention and the status quo managed to stop the problem of religious clashes. Thus, the opp has effectively failed to defend its status quo. The rape of a nun in Kerala and the ensuing violence is an apt example to show that the problem of religious conflicts is inherent to society and mindsets and doesn’t stem from ‘forced’ or ‘regulated’ conversions . In general, any sort of conversion may be a trigger. In this case again, the opp has failed to hold its fort.
CASE BENEFIT ANALYSIS-
1. The opp seems to be reeling under the notion that the status quo existent today (as they see it) is one where religious conversions have optimal regulation and hence they believe that this regulated scenario is the best. We have told you, as the prop, that the status quo today is an impediment in the process of religious conversions. Our notions have been-
1. liberty. The opp seems to concur with us on this- the only difference being that they propose a regulated form of liberty. They argue against conversion for money and say that this is akin to legalizing fraud. On the other hand, they tend to treat religion rather exclusively and as a sensitive issue. The contradiction is evident- either religion is exclusive and sensitive and hence people must be allowed to make their choice( under whatever parameters they may deem fit) . In this situation, we have clearly won the case. Else, if conversion is materialistic and maybe akin to fraud, the opp has made a blatant contradiction of themselves. Either ways, we have clearly won this point.
2. Secularism. The opp has accused us of making a ‘leap of faith’ by equating spiritual and monetary gains. This is rather strange, for it is evident that it is the opp that is indeed trying to draw unnecessary parallels( as I have mentioned in the previous sub point). We have told you that secularism in its essence empowers the individual to make a choice. The law gives an individual the option to decide his/her religion. If the law has to now decide on the question of permitting conversions, then where is this freedom? The opp tells you that unrestricted freedom is bad. We agree. But does this mean that we must pre-emptively curb freedom? The opp also says that religious conversions shall become a vote bank mechanism. Ladies and gentlemen, by allowing intervention between the follower and the faith-that is when people have a chance to capitalize on the scenario and unjustly manipulate vote banks. If an individual has choice, he/she may choose not to be a part of a vote bank even though he or she may belong to a particular faith. I quote the opp “we would be, by virtue of the law, be allowing people to buy votes” . This is exactly what we have been saying since the outset. This is another blatant contradiction in the opp ranks.
2. The opp seems to believe that the assumptions made by the law today with regard to religious freedom are appropriate. They propose erring on the side of caution- the absolute correct thing to do. However, what they so blatantly fail to see in their quest for restrictions is which is the side of caution. In their argument, they have cited the fact that the “founding fathers of the constitution felt it reasonable that if a large group was seeking conversion, there were overwhelming chances that it was by force or allurement.” We, the proposition, have shown you how it isn’t really reasonable to assume such a fact without proof to the contrary. The very laws that my worthy opponents talk about proposes innocence of any under-trial until proclaimed guilty. Then, by their logic, this law must also be flawed- and it certainly can’t be in the interests of everyone. The fact remains, ladies and gentlemen, that allowing an individual the freedom of choice is the best way to err, if at all. As we have already mentioned, these very laws that my opponents propose can be used in case any malpractice is found out. After all, a pre-emptive use of such laws is likely to result in fallacies of post-hoc. Moreover, in case the allurement/conversion was by force, the individual/group has the power vested in him to appeal.
With regards the alluring of the lower castes, the opposition’s argument about luring by material gain has already been aptly countered by us. We have proved to you how an individual has the right to choose what is good for him. If he/she wants material gains for personal growth, it is not for us to sit on judgement on whether this is right or wrong. Morality is an individualistic concept. It is not the prerogative of society to sit on value judgements. At most, society may approve or disapprove. However, the onus to act is on the individual alone.
The entire argument of religious clashes has already been dealt with by me, so I shall waste no more time on repeating myself.
3. As an apt continuation of my previous argument, as we have mentioned how morality is an individual’s prerogative and not something for society to sit on judgement on- I shall now prove the point.
1. The opp seems to be mixing up religion,politics and economics. Regardless, for the sake of completion of argumentation, I shall first tackle this redundant point. Firstly, the simple reason that these three topics are related is because they are all a consequence of an individual’s right to choice. I cannot stress more on the fact that a restricted freedom of choice is basically no freedom of choice. It is, in the opposition’s terms, akin to giving a baby a lollipop and preventing him/her from eating it. Restrictions of freedom of choice in fact have more severe consequences. For one, there is always the option of subverting the law if an individual is willing. As the opp seems to suggest that some of the population in our country are in dire straits, this is a very realistic possibility. We do not want to unnecessarily start filling up courtrooms with cases of people who made a personal choice for personal gain, do we? For another, restrictions do nothing more than just reflect the regressive mindset of society. An individual makes up a faction , not the vice versa. By curbing/regulating/restricting this process, all that we do is first make life difficult, and if things ‘seem’ to be normal, then we go the apology way. Else, we assert that the law is right and the individual(no matter how genuine the case is) is wrong. Either ways, the situation is far from pleasant.
2. I have already shown to you how different individuals may have different morals and values. To say that selling my vote for money may be wrong to me- to someone else it may be his only remaining means of survival. Again, morals make up society, society doesn’t make morals. Hence, society has no business to sit on individual judgements.
In recent years, more and more states in India have enacted laws to restrict religious conversion, particularly targeting conversions via "force" or "allurement."
In Tamil Nadu,
"People using money or other benefits in conversion efforts targeted at these groups would receive four years imprisonment, and a one lakh (one hundred thousand rupee) fine."
In Gujarat,
Legislation goes a step further, making conversion ceremonies contingent upon advance notice and the permission of a district magistrate, given once the magistrate is satisfied that the conversion involves no force or allurement.
In HP,
Those wishing to convert to another religion will have to give a month's notice to the District Magistrate who, after enquiry, will grant permission for the change. It imposes a minimum of two years imprisonment or a fine of 25,000 rupees, or both, on "anyone found guilty of abetting and indulging in conversion from one religion to another by use of force, inducement or fraudulent means.
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Teams
Prop : Hardik, Monil, Ankur, Tejas
Opp : Suzie, Suddu 'The Loved One' Bhatija, Moti, Jhonny
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Prop 1 by Hardik -
The motion before house today is – This house will permit all religious conversion.
By this house I mean the government of India. “Religious conversions” is when a person decides to convert from one religion to another, and does so through a procedure(if there is one). The person will have to simply register with the government regarding the change of religion.
The status quo is that in India many states have different kinds of restrictions on religious conversions. This curbs liberty of a person. There is also the problem so called "forced conversions." We shall deal with it in the course of the speech and tell you how what we are doing will help the situation.
I shall use the words faith and religion interchangeably.
The status quo is that many Indian states have restrictions on religious conversions. Some states permit conversion only when approved of by the state.
We propose as follows-
1)Liberty - We believe in the right to personal freedom of thought, conscience and action. These are the fundamental human rights every human being is entitled to. The Indian constitution ascertains these rights and we abide by it. A person may think and act in any way he wishes as long as it doesn't hurt the interests of the society and the state. The state should in no way interfere with an individual’s personal life if it is not a matter of concern.
2)Secularism - We believe religion is a personal matter and a person has full right to choose his own faith. The state of India is a secular state. Abiding by the essence of secularism, we believe the government should not promote or oppose any religion. We believe in giving the individual complete freedom in choosing his own religion, if he wishes to follow one.
Being a secular state and abiding by the principle of personal freedom, we shall permit all religious conversions.
3)Consequence – Every person has the right to choose for himself and lead a life with liberty. Suppose a person wishes to change his faith, but the government does not allow him to do so. That person is going to be unhappy because he is not allowed to do what he wants to. A person in distress is not going to contribute to society and economy the way he would if he was allowed to. The government definitely does not wish to be the cause for such distress.
4) Now many people believe there exists this problem of forced conversions. This view of mass conversions or even individual conversions is unreasonable. No one can force a person to change his faith. There might be different reasons, completely a persons discretion, as to why a person wants to change his faith. But at the end of the day its the person's choice. Even if masses decide to do so, its still a matter of independent choice. We believe that every individual is rational and is making an informed decision in his own interest. As far as there is no physical force involved, we respect the choice of an individual. Going by our first constructive, we permit all conversions for reasons whatsoever.
If there is physical force involved, then, of course, the person can approach the government, and that shall not be accepted as conversion.
Opp 1 by Suzie -
Note: Government’s stand is not clearly defined. Gathering from the information provided, the following stance has been assumed for the government
1.The government wishes to make conversion completely unregulated
2.Under the new plan, conversions for money will be legal
Principle arguments:
1. In India, religion is an extremely sensitive issue:
a.A large part of the country is religious and cares deeply about its faith
b.Religious inclinations are often strongly linked to political alignments
c.A large part of the riots and disturbances in the country have a religious flavour to them
Essentially, religion is not an issue that can be toyed with. Leaving the field for conversions open and unregulated would be a simple-minded error. The issue requires serious thought whilst keeping in mind the consequences of rampant and unchecked conversions.
2. India is secular and religious freedom should be given to one and all. At the same time, the interests of society as a whole should not be affected negatively by our policies. In essence, it is acceptable for anyone to practice/preach/spread his/her religion as long as the interests of society as a whole are not compromised.
Line of argument:
1. Religious conversions are completely acceptable so long as they are for faith and not for monetary gains or performed under force/coercion
2. Status Quo ensures the above
3. Opening the field for conversions for “any reasons” will have disastrous consequences for society
Rebuttals:
1. Concerns for Liberty, Secularism and religious freedom: Status Quo does not in any way infringe upon these freedoms. In the current situation a person may choose to convert to any religion/faith. The regulations do not disallow conversions. So religious freedom is not hampered. The regulations merely:
a. Ensure that by pre-registration all conversions are inspected. In the plan proposed by the government the onus for reporting coercive/forced conversions depends on the converted individual. The individuals being converted are often poor and uneducated. The parties responsible for conversion are very often powerful and possess political clout. It is unreasonable to expect these people to stand up to these powerful organizations. At the very least, not all cases of coercion will come to light if the onus for reporting cases is left upto the individual.
b. Ensure that conversions are not being performed in return for monetary or material benefits. Why this is essential will be explained later.
Within the regulations, it is very possible, simple even, for someone to convert to another religion if the reason is not monetary or material benefits.
2. “Conversions for any reason”: The government admits that conversions should be free and unhindered “as long as it doesn’t hurt the interests of society and the state”. We will now prove why free conversions for “any reasons” (monetary, material etc.) will in-fact hurt the interests of society and the state.
a. Rapid conversions, if done in exchange for money leads to rival camps feeling cheated and gives rise to tensions between religions/communities, inevitably leading to clashes/riots between people of different religions (e.g. Kandhamal in Orissa, where a spate of apparently forced/bought mass conversions lead to violent clashes and widespread carnage between opposing religious groups). In a situation where it is legal to convert for money, it is not hard to see that communal clashes will be commonplace.
b. In India religion is intrinsically linked with politics and vote banks. Conversions are often sponsored by political groups to rapidly gain large vote banks and change the political demographic of a community/region. In their eagerness to win votes, these groups often employ money or the promise of material benefits in return for conversion. Essentially, conversions for money are in most cases, are a buying of vote banks, which is anyway illegal. So allowing conversions for money is equivalent to allowing buying votes for money.
From these two points it becomes clear that to regard religious conversions for money as merely a personal choice that doesn’t affect society is wholly naïve.
3. Government’s issue with regulation? The government has offered no reason to oppose the regulations that are in place in various states (such as pre-notification for conversion etc).
Constructives:
1. Stick to status quo while encouraging the introduction of regulations in states where it currently does not exist.
Summary:
1. The government’s plan poses a real threat to the stability and law order in the country
2. The government’s plan does not promote religious freedom or liberty any better than status quo, which is an aim the government has set for itself while introducing the plan.
Proposition 2 – Ankur -
The opposition agrees with our belief that freedom to personal faith is sacrosanct, and the contention therefore is only in whether the current set of laws is curtailing it or not.
The chief thrust of these laws is evidently to check conversions by force or allurement, otherwise referred to as illegitimate proselytism.
Going through the wordings of these laws, we find that they make some unwarranted assumptions.
Firstly, it is assumed that if a large group of people seeks conversion at the same time then it must be via force or allurement. What about if an enlightened Buddha preaches his sermon to a bunch of lost souls who all find their path to salvation through it? Will they not be allowed to convert because some law presumes there must be ulterior motives behind it, and actually penalizes them for it?
Secondly, these rules assume that certain groups of society such as lower castes, tribals and women are more susceptible to be lured into religious conversion, and therefore exercises tyrannical regulations preventing their conversion.
I hereby refute the opposition's stand against "Conversion by Allurement".
An individual's decision for religious conversion will always be motivated by gain. People throughout history have converted to new or different religions because they were sick of complicated rituals, or sought their promised land, or wanted to have an equal status with others in society--which the target religion could offer. In the most 'ideal' circumstances, the motive is spiritual gain, but it is gain nevertheless. Now, there is nothing wrong with seeking higher quality of life, so there is nothing inherently wrong with such conversions. For instance, several low-caste Hindus convert to Christianity or Islam as a way of having social equality that they fail to find in Hinduism. If these bills are to be enforced, these people will all face denial of secular freedom.
Let me elaborate the perspective of secular freedom, which the Opposition says is not being violated by the present set of laws.
A secular nation allows each person the right to any faith, and the right to NO faith, as well as the right to a faith so weak that the offer of a cow and a bicycle is enough for that person to change his or her religion.
The problem stated by the opposition is that of communal disharmony which springs from such conversions. This is an extraneous issue--a social one, and justifying the denial of a fundamental human right (which it is according to the UN as well as the Indian constitution) to an individual due to external consequences is unacceptable.
At the core of it, those who are opposing free religious conversion are orthodox religious leaders who are concerned about the change of religious demographics in favour of missionary religions. Instead of "feeling cheated" these people should understand their roles as leaders and do something about the causes which are encouraging followers to become apostates. For example the Sikh community runs ‘langars’, so that none is destitute. If you think and feel for your religion as a community, then do something about its welfare rather than riot about people leaving because they don't have food.
And the government should do their part in the upliftment of people who are so poor and uneducated that they are ready to change their faith in exchange for benefits. Enact laws to provide a certain quality of life to these people rather than stopping them from conversion, for next they will be found selling organs, committing mass suicides or becoming militants, which are worse consequences than even riots.
Questioning the motives of politicians is easy and does not strengthen the opposition’s case. While on the one hand religious conversions are seen akin to purchasing vote banks (as the Opposition states), on the other hand we can see in the bill an attempt to "polarise the state along religious lines" or to "using communal issues to deflect attention from economic and social problems".
As for conversions by force, commonly manifested as powerful factions threatening weaker communities toward conversion, there is certainly no justification. However, the problem in “forced conversions" is with the "force" and not the "conversion", just as treating a person to ice-cream is such a nice thing but force-feeding one isn't. There is nothing wrong with sexual intercourse, but when forced on someone it constitutes nearly the most grievous crime in the book of law. And there are laws to prevent it. The point is that these laws don't require you to submit a CV and an SOP for buying ice-cream or require you to give the government a month's notice before having intercourse.
Lastly, anyone who is falsely misled in some way into religious conversion against one's true will, shall probably soon realize one's folly and long to return. And return he shall with a faith stronger than that which he left with, with certain hope that the all-forgiving god he worships shall take him back. He certainly will not expect to be thwarted by laws other than those of the religion itself, and should not.
Summarizing:
1. Restricting conversions IS a breach of secular freedom.
2. Present laws not clearly serving their purpose and restricting legitimate conversions.
3. Conversions by Allurement--attack the cause (wretched conditions of communities), not the effect. Else, more severe effects will follow.
4. Forced Conversions--Not possible to evaluate beforehand. The law should punish those found guilty of illegitimate proselytization which, in essence, is preventing misuse of force and not the prevention of conversion.
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Opp 2 By Suddu
The Government’s stand in this Debate:
1. The government wishes to make conversion completely unregulated
2. Conversions for money will be legal
3. Conversions by coercion are punishable but the onus to report such coercions lies on the person itself
The Government’s last response:
1. Laws on religious freedom make some unwarranted assumptions
2. Justification of conversion by allurement, banning of which will infringe secular freedom
3. On conversions by force – problem is with the ‘forced’ and not the ‘conversions’
4. People misled into conversions will realize their folly and want to convert back
Rebuttals:
1. Laws on religions freedom/conversion making some unwarranted assumptions:
1. Laws asssuming force/allurement in cases of mass conversion: The proposition needs to realize that these laws were made keeping everyone in mind. The fouding fathers of the constitution felt it reasonable that if a large group was seeking conversion, there were overwhelming chances that it was by force or allurement. And given our background before independance, the extent to which groups are driven for political gain and length to which people will go for personal gain, this was perfectly reasonable. As we have shown earlier, in cases like Kandhamal, such forced/bought mass conversions can cause violent clashes and carnage. Given the likelihood of force/allurement in case of mass conversion, and the violence and damage it can cause, it is reasonable to err on the side of caution and make this assumption. In any case, status quo allows the genuine cases by requiring a pre-emptive investigation into the cause of the conversion. It is safe to assume that the “enlightened” ones will clear this investigation and be allowed to covert. Neither does status quo, nor are we suggesting that these cases should be disallowed in the future.
2. Laws assuming that people of lower castes are more susceptible to conversions: Well, aren’t they? A number of laws have been enacted to protect, yes, protect, the rights of the lower castes and for good reason. They by far have had the worst deal, have been the most ill-treated and exploited category of individuals in pre-independance India. Their social and economic conditions have made them the most susceptible to be coerced (by threat of bodily harm) or lured by material gain into religious conversions. It is our duty to protect these people from such happenings (coercion) which would severely curtail their freedoms which we so passionately defend. Disallowing luring by material gain will be justified as a rebuttal to the next point.
2. On conversion for material gain:
The proposition claims that a secular nation allows each person “the right to any faith, and the right to NO faith, as well as the right to a faith so weak that the offer of a cow and a bicycle is enough for that person to change his or her religion.”` Religion is an explosive issue in the country. Even in the past, conversions have lead to violence and loss of life. This will simply add fuel to the fire. Even if we assume a best case situation where there is no violence, as Tarun mentions, the repeated buying and selling of people’s faiths will inflate the price to buy a conversion. No self respecting religious person would come to terms with his religion being commercialized. In our country, where groups will go to any extent to gain political power, we would be, by virtue of the law, be allowing people to buy votes (which is illegal – I hope the proposition understands why).
The proposition is making a leap of faith by equating spiritual gain with monetary gain. They are not the same and cannot be compared. Even if we allow them to be equated, pursuing gains, by law, has it ethical limits whether it spiritual or monetary. While there is nothing wrong with seeking spiritual gain, we do not allow human sacrifices for religious/spiritual gains because they infringe the right to life of the unfortunate few. While there is nothing wrong with seeking a higher quality of life, we do not allow fraud and prostitution. Any pursuit of gain has to be limited by ethics and the greater interests of society. The proposition seems to be going on about how a fundamental human right is being denied. There are 2 ways to counter this.
1. The laws which are enacted in the constitution in this regard are for the better of society as a whole. All our freedoms have limits for the same reason – absolute freedoms for some means greatly curtailed freedoms for many. Suggesting that an “extraneous” social issue, that can cause catastrophic loss of human life (as we have seen in riots which are religiously motivated), is no reason for curtailing a “fundamental human right”, is as outrageous and deluded as suggesting that we should allow absolute freedom of speech even though it may trigger rioting and violence, not to mention the death of thousands of people. The government needs to keep in mind the larger good of society. If an act like this can (and it has as Sushant exemplified), cause great harm and loss of life, we need to keep that in mind and disallow it.
2. The proposition claims that these bills deny people the right of secular freedom. In this particular case, status quo doesn’t prevent legitimate conversions. The fundaemental rights are by no means denied. They are limited, as are all fundaemental rights. This brings us to the core question of this debate – is this limitation – disallowing people from converting for benefits justified? The fact is that, by not allowing people to convert for economic benefits, we are simply ensuring that people do not convert to wrongly benefit from laws and institutions – benefits that were not rightfully meant for them. Allowing them to do so would be very akin to legalizing fraud – we are simply disallowing people from benefitting from somethings that are not rightfully theirs – we are simply disallowing something that is ethically and morally wrong. And given that in our country, religion is intrinsically linked with politics and vote banks, we are saying is that it is okay to sell you vote for money or other benefits. In a democracy such as ours, where the state encourages its people to be responsible, make an informed choice and vote to decide the government, this would be contradictory to the very goal of this process. We will be allowing money to dominate politics and the governance of our country.
The proposition suggests that this bill is an attempt to “polarise the state along religious lines” or is “using communal issues to deflect attention from economic and social problems". The fact is that the proposition is using economic and social issues to deflect attention from communal ones which in our country are undeniably real. They are trying to make this a debate about whether or not these people should get benefits under the law. What the proposition is telling you is that since these people are economically and socially challenged, due to country’s very pronounced caste system, we should allow them to change their religion to gain on benefits originally meant for others. They are saying that these people will go on to other worse means of livelihood, if they are not allowed to benefit economically from conversions. This is just escapism. No doubt, there should be laws to make sure that these people are benefitted – but that is not the issue of debate. We cannot use the absence of these laws a justification to allow them to swindle money and benefits from public systems – money and benefits which aren’t rightly theirs. Their economic and social issues don’t change the fact that this is morally and ethically unacceptable. Or, that the ramifications this will have by essentially commercializing religion, not to mention blowing an already opened lid on communal violence will be nothing short of catastrophic. Do these people deserve to be liberated from the shackles of the caste system – yes they do. Do these people deserve to live respectfully as people of that particular caste – yes they do. But, realistically speaking, is this what is happening? By a simple allowing people to change their religion, we are simply skirting the issue. Even after conversions, people of that particular caste are still looked down upon. This is not the pervasive change that is required to sort this out both permanently (as we aren’t able to rid society of its notion of castes) or temporarily (where by allowing this, we are opening the lid on even more violence and discontent).
3. On conversions by force:
As Tarun very rightly put it, the connotations of ‘forced’ when it comes to religion are much different from its connotations anywhere else. This is mainly due to the fact that religion is a very touchy issue in our country. Nobody cares about what we do in the privacy of our homes. But when it comes to religion, everyone cares. So when the government requires that any religious conversions be investigated and approved, they are simply taking the necessary precautions, and very rightly so, to ensure that there is no force/allurement involved. The consequences of not enforcing this measure can be tragic.
The government claims that it won’t be possible to evalute these forced conversions beforehand, and that some people guilty of illegitimate proselytization will not be caught. They go on to claim that by allowing the ‘forced’ conversions and investigating later, we are preserving the right to freedom of religion. We find this claim to be absurd. Firstly, in case of a ‘forced conversion’, the conversion wouldn’t be happening if it wasn’t, by definition, coerced. Secular freedom was being violated anyway becuase the conversion itself was forced. We are simply trying to protect secular freedom and a preventive measure is definitely more effective than a detective one, where the onus to report such coersion lies on the coerced itself, who could still be under the perpetual threat of bodily harm. Secondly, a legal investigation into a conversion will definitely be able to detect conversions involving force/allurement. Even if we admit that some cases will not be detected, that is no reason for scrapping the process completely. In order to justify change of status quo with regard to forced conversions, the burden of the proposition is to prove that status quo is harmful / insufficient to the current situation, and provide an alternative. Scrapping investigations because they feel it insufficient, and suggesting detective and not preventive measures doesn’t satisfy this burden.
4. On follies and re-conversions:
Even after 3 responses, the proposition seems to have a deluded idea of what status quo is. Status quo as elaborated in the earlier responses allows any religious conversions as long as they are not forced or allured. Whether or not people realize their follies is not in quesition. The fact remains that status quo doesn’t prevent people from otherwise converting to any religion of their choice (except in case of coersion and allurement), any number of times as they choose to.
To Summarize:
1. The laws limiting religious conversions, keeping in mind the background of our country have made very sound assumptions
2. Conversion for material reasons remains unethical and immoral. Let not the social and economic ineptness of this category of people be used as a justification to allow this. This law doesn’t address their issues in the long term (caste issues still exist) or the short term (lid on communal violence and discontent being blown open)
3. Even though the proposition do not condone conversion by coercive means, their system of dealing with it is inadequate
4. People, by the current set of laws, are not thwarted from conversion or re-conversion any number of times as long as their reasons are genuine
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Prop 3 by Tejas
Ladies and gentlemen,
This debate has seen some extremely flimsy argumentation from the opposition. For one, the opposition doesn’t seem to make up its mind whether it wants to actually argue against the case in practice or for the case in principle. In the course of my speech, I shall show you how the opposition has managed to come up with some inherent contradictions in their argumentation. I shall also go on to do a case benefit analysis to prove how the case run by us, viz. the proposition has been much superior.
POINTS OF CLASH-
1. The nature of status quo.
2. The nature of assumptions made by the laws restricting/regulating/limiting conversions in the country today.
3. The morality involved in religious conversions from the perspective of the individual or the society.
In my speech, I shall take up each of the following points and explain to you how the proposition’s stand on the matter is not only valid, but also superior.
REBUTTALS-
1. The opp seems to have missed the proposition’s point on investigation of conversions. The proposition’s 2nd speaker made it clear that with regards to the issue of what is labelled by the status quo (the one which my worthy opponents propose and that we don’t accept, for reasons I shall explain) as “forced conversions”, it is not possible to evaluate beforehand whether the conversion was ‘forced’ or not. The opp seems to have gone on a tangent with argument on the semantics , and that too without actually getting the point. Hence they come up with flimsy argumentation like “in case of a ‘forced conversion’, the conversion wouldn’t be happening if it wasn’t, by definition, coerced. Secular freedom was being violated anyway because the conversion itself was forced” . Actually , they have not only misunderstood the point, but have conveniently tried to bluff us into believing that they protect secularism, when in fact they are championing secularism with riders( and thus effectively contradicting themselves).
Moreover, their proposal on legal investigation seems to have the same problems that they accuse us of-
1. It can be a biased case, wherein the same high and mighty people may buy off the judiciary. If my worthy opponents talk of practicality, then today’s legal system is nothing but a testimony to the fact that their argument is flawed, for it is often that we see cases going in favour of not the wronged party, but the more influential.
2. It is the judiciary’s word against the individual’s/group’s. What if the conversion wasn’t forced, and yet the judiciary, for some technical proof or lack of it, deems it a forced conversion? By now, we have argued enough on the drawbacks of the legal system to understand that this is a fair possibility. What do my opponents-the protectors of secularism- then do? Ban that conversion?
3. The ‘even if’ argument of the opp itself shows their lack of confidence in their own argument. Hence, all the premptive talk about burdens et al .
2. The opp seems to think that ‘forced religious conversions’ lead to religious clashes. While this may be true in cases, equally true is the fact even non forced religious conversions lead to clashes. Moreover, it is common knowledge that most religious riots have occurred not during the conversion process, but out of the spite born out of the conversion. The conversion may have been perfectly consented, and yet there are religious clashes. If my worthy opponents wish to stop/curb/restrict this sort of occurrence, they should rather be arguing for banning of religious conversions rather than merely placing a check on it. There is in fact a downside to the check-
1. The aggrieved community may feel that the law has been unjust in allowing/disallowing the conversion(as the case may be). In this case, there will not only be factional violence, but also a clash between the individuals and the government. This is in fact a far worse situation.
2. The check, if it does certify the conversion, may well be an indication to the masses about the bias in the state. This is again a worse alternative.
Hence, the opp has failed to show how judicial intervention and the status quo managed to stop the problem of religious clashes. Thus, the opp has effectively failed to defend its status quo. The rape of a nun in Kerala and the ensuing violence is an apt example to show that the problem of religious conflicts is inherent to society and mindsets and doesn’t stem from ‘forced’ or ‘regulated’ conversions . In general, any sort of conversion may be a trigger. In this case again, the opp has failed to hold its fort.
CASE BENEFIT ANALYSIS-
1. The opp seems to be reeling under the notion that the status quo existent today (as they see it) is one where religious conversions have optimal regulation and hence they believe that this regulated scenario is the best. We have told you, as the prop, that the status quo today is an impediment in the process of religious conversions. Our notions have been-
1. liberty. The opp seems to concur with us on this- the only difference being that they propose a regulated form of liberty. They argue against conversion for money and say that this is akin to legalizing fraud. On the other hand, they tend to treat religion rather exclusively and as a sensitive issue. The contradiction is evident- either religion is exclusive and sensitive and hence people must be allowed to make their choice( under whatever parameters they may deem fit) . In this situation, we have clearly won the case. Else, if conversion is materialistic and maybe akin to fraud, the opp has made a blatant contradiction of themselves. Either ways, we have clearly won this point.
2. Secularism. The opp has accused us of making a ‘leap of faith’ by equating spiritual and monetary gains. This is rather strange, for it is evident that it is the opp that is indeed trying to draw unnecessary parallels( as I have mentioned in the previous sub point). We have told you that secularism in its essence empowers the individual to make a choice. The law gives an individual the option to decide his/her religion. If the law has to now decide on the question of permitting conversions, then where is this freedom? The opp tells you that unrestricted freedom is bad. We agree. But does this mean that we must pre-emptively curb freedom? The opp also says that religious conversions shall become a vote bank mechanism. Ladies and gentlemen, by allowing intervention between the follower and the faith-that is when people have a chance to capitalize on the scenario and unjustly manipulate vote banks. If an individual has choice, he/she may choose not to be a part of a vote bank even though he or she may belong to a particular faith. I quote the opp “we would be, by virtue of the law, be allowing people to buy votes” . This is exactly what we have been saying since the outset. This is another blatant contradiction in the opp ranks.
2. The opp seems to believe that the assumptions made by the law today with regard to religious freedom are appropriate. They propose erring on the side of caution- the absolute correct thing to do. However, what they so blatantly fail to see in their quest for restrictions is which is the side of caution. In their argument, they have cited the fact that the “founding fathers of the constitution felt it reasonable that if a large group was seeking conversion, there were overwhelming chances that it was by force or allurement.” We, the proposition, have shown you how it isn’t really reasonable to assume such a fact without proof to the contrary. The very laws that my worthy opponents talk about proposes innocence of any under-trial until proclaimed guilty. Then, by their logic, this law must also be flawed- and it certainly can’t be in the interests of everyone. The fact remains, ladies and gentlemen, that allowing an individual the freedom of choice is the best way to err, if at all. As we have already mentioned, these very laws that my opponents propose can be used in case any malpractice is found out. After all, a pre-emptive use of such laws is likely to result in fallacies of post-hoc. Moreover, in case the allurement/conversion was by force, the individual/group has the power vested in him to appeal.
With regards the alluring of the lower castes, the opposition’s argument about luring by material gain has already been aptly countered by us. We have proved to you how an individual has the right to choose what is good for him. If he/she wants material gains for personal growth, it is not for us to sit on judgement on whether this is right or wrong. Morality is an individualistic concept. It is not the prerogative of society to sit on value judgements. At most, society may approve or disapprove. However, the onus to act is on the individual alone.
The entire argument of religious clashes has already been dealt with by me, so I shall waste no more time on repeating myself.
3. As an apt continuation of my previous argument, as we have mentioned how morality is an individual’s prerogative and not something for society to sit on judgement on- I shall now prove the point.
1. The opp seems to be mixing up religion,politics and economics. Regardless, for the sake of completion of argumentation, I shall first tackle this redundant point. Firstly, the simple reason that these three topics are related is because they are all a consequence of an individual’s right to choice. I cannot stress more on the fact that a restricted freedom of choice is basically no freedom of choice. It is, in the opposition’s terms, akin to giving a baby a lollipop and preventing him/her from eating it. Restrictions of freedom of choice in fact have more severe consequences. For one, there is always the option of subverting the law if an individual is willing. As the opp seems to suggest that some of the population in our country are in dire straits, this is a very realistic possibility. We do not want to unnecessarily start filling up courtrooms with cases of people who made a personal choice for personal gain, do we? For another, restrictions do nothing more than just reflect the regressive mindset of society. An individual makes up a faction , not the vice versa. By curbing/regulating/restricting this process, all that we do is first make life difficult, and if things ‘seem’ to be normal, then we go the apology way. Else, we assert that the law is right and the individual(no matter how genuine the case is) is wrong. Either ways, the situation is far from pleasant.
2. I have already shown to you how different individuals may have different morals and values. To say that selling my vote for money may be wrong to me- to someone else it may be his only remaining means of survival. Again, morals make up society, society doesn’t make morals. Hence, society has no business to sit on individual judgements.
Friday, July 17, 2009
Sreedharan Discussion
Lots of feedback that a discussion on something current would be fun. So lets go for it.
"This house would not have E. Sreedharan as the chief guest of the IITB convocation on account of the recent quality failures at the Delhi metro site."
The best points for the motion will be compiled and a copy given to the DoSA, courtesy Rahul Dash.
"This house would not have E. Sreedharan as the chief guest of the IITB convocation on account of the recent quality failures at the Delhi metro site."
The best points for the motion will be compiled and a copy given to the DoSA, courtesy Rahul Dash.
Define this!
Below are some open-ended motions. Come up with funny, wacky, interesting defintions of these motions, that ?may actually?! be debateable?
THW do the moon walk.
THW just beat it.
THW get rid of Ronaldo.
THW dance to Rakhi's tune.
THW stick to the walls.
THW shave our heads.
THW fiddle on the roof.
THW do the moon walk.
THW just beat it.
THW get rid of Ronaldo.
THW dance to Rakhi's tune.
THW stick to the walls.
THW shave our heads.
THW fiddle on the roof.
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